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They dint actually have books anymore...actually they couldn't even read...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=941PHEJHCwU
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::GB:: Military vest
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RO - Last Stand - Gas Mask - Try Me
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=Zenith=Buckle Glove
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SAPA Pose 32
Reposting again,
because been having the hardest time dealing with a tough subject I failed twice already,
pharmacology could reign and ruin med industry by eating our brain cells and fleshes :)
how are you doing, hope you're making lemonade out of lemons - and send me some charms :)
ps. I really need all available, because otherwise I'd stuck up in med and never end up going for neurosurgery/oxford/phds/all the common dreams people have.
I was sick for a while, now helped and being taken care of a lot, too. Kindness speaks softest and loudest even in silence.
Keep us all student doctors who strive, in prayers?
chat.whatsapp.com/CvN08jSD0FU6gRC3lQ4y8z?mode=hqrt2
here's the link to the bookclub I opened, if you're also bled out by life - and need some cozy book chats with people :)
Oh, happy winter 2025! are we there yet?!
Also, anyone thought of publishing their book or start writing?
I hosted our bookclub (retired Garrison Forest teachers) on Tuesday, and we were blessed to have the author join us. Christianna McCausland, second from left front row) was a '93 graduate of Garrison and had most of us as a teacher either in middle or upper school. We spent most of the time talking about the process she went through writing and publishing the book which was facinating. And to top if off, The Orchard Lover is a real gem of a read!!
32/365 - 01Feb14
I'm participating in bookclub that is reading The Complete Guide to Black & White Photography by Michael Freeman. As we are reading the book we are trying take pictures that go along with the book during the month of February. If you're interested in the bookclub here's a link to the blog post about it. www.boostyourphotography.com/2014/01/bookclub.html
#1 An Open Door - 114 Pictures in 2014
Catherine Anderson
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Was a bookshop and retains the frontage but has been renovated as a holiday let.
Delta 100 Leica M2 Zeiss 35mm C Biogon
SL Book Club every WED at 10am and podcast on digital culture at draxfiles.com
Visit this location at Second Life Book Club Island in Second Life
Assignment: PCA16
Deadline: Sunday 10th February 08
Image Tag: pca16
From: The Tamed Shrew (Kate)
Mission:
Flowers. Yes, this is the week to show me how you can produce a flower picture in your own style and be pleased to hang it on your wall afterwards.
They brighten up our lives with their colour and form and can be used to convey messages of love, friendship, celebration or sympathy. They can fill a room with their scent or brighten up a dark corner and most of all, they are not boring!
I wonder why, when so many flower photos are taken, there are no stunning flower photographers or at least none I can bring to mind at the moment? Artists have excelled in flower paintings over hundreds of years, but I am pushed to name one professional photographer, whose work with flowers, I adore.
You are all artists in photography, with your own areas of style and skills. Using your preferences, think of the flower as simply a subject – and go to town!
Flowers can be represented as line drawings, colour abstracts, props in a portrait, high-key or low-key, in street photography, still life subjects or anywhere you want – the choice is yours.
If you need inspiration, the following links might help.
www.livingartsoriginals.com/infoflowerart.htm
Here you will see names such as Claude Monet, Georgia O’Keeffe and Andy Warhol and also a wonderful series by Stephen Meyers on his x-ray flower pictures. My own style tends towards Georgia O’Keeffe’s geometrical forms and I shall look for inspiration in my florists’ windows for the shapes I want. I hope you will be able to do the same.
WIT
I bought some beautiful purple and white tulips that I had planned to take for the assignment, but a few things happened. First, flowers just aren't my thing, so I didn't get what I wanted from them. Then Tookie got involved, so I was going to post one with him and the flowers, but then I got this shot. I converted it to b&w to create the mood I wanted. I know the flowers are a small part of this scene, so I'm really excited that Kate made this assignment so open to individual interpretation. That dresser had a bit more detail in the shadows before I uploaded to Flickr. Not sure what happened.
PHOTO CREDIT: Alas Alack
______________________
Zoe Foodiboo: Welcome and thank you all for coming.
Adele Kling: :)
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): .-'`'-. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE .-'`'-.
Zoe Foodiboo: Marlena - why don't you introduce yourself?
Sir10Lee Knot (sir10lee) smiles
Marlena Lilly Ricketts (marlenalilly) blushes and looks around.
Zoe Foodiboo whispers: Everyone, please help yourself to cocktails. They're in the book in front of Eloise - just click and select!
Marlena Lilly Ricketts (marlenalilly): This is my first time here, and I have not read the book, but I like books!
Marlena Lilly Ricketts (marlenalilly): And I like drinks.
Zoe Foodiboo: Excellent! Nice to meet you!
Marlena Lilly Ricketts (marlenalilly): My partner Ed has the book, but he can't be here at this time.
Adele Kling: So, you fall right in with this group.
Pauline Clary: Your at the right place then!
Adele Kling: *fit right in
Marlena Lilly Ricketts (marlenalilly): Whew! Sits back in relief.
AlasAndAlack nods reassuringly.
Zoe Foodiboo: I think we've all met Herr Knot at Happy Hour?
Adele Kling: Hallo Lee
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Hallo, herr!
Pauline Clary: Hi Lee
Sir10Lee Knot (sir10lee) nods politely
AlasAndAlack: I believe I have read his newspaper?
Sir10Lee Knot (sir10lee): i hope you did, yes
Zoe Foodiboo: Ah yes, do you want to tell us in a sentence or two about your newspaper?
AlasAndAlack smiles. "Delightful read."
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (Oh, I've not read it, but really want to! Anybody have an extra copy?)
Marlena Lilly Ricketts (marlenalilly): I read last week's issue I believe.
Zoe Foodiboo: Maybe just tell us what it is and where we can get a copy?
Sir10Lee Knot (sir10lee): well, it's a weekly magazin, trying to bring some contemporarily news from the world, and some gossip from berlin
Sir10Lee Knot (sir10lee): and it should mainly bring enjoyment
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (Wonderful!)
Adele Kling: and centerfold naughty photograph
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen) gasps!
Zoe Foodiboo: ((Are you accepting submissions?))
Adele Kling: heh
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Herr Knot, REALLY!
Sir10Lee Knot (sir10lee): well, 'naughty'? i only had 1 full nude so far
AlasAndAlack mutters into her drink, "Gossip! You should have no shortage of material then in Berlin!"
Sir10Lee Knot (sir10lee): enough gossip around, indeed
Marlena Lilly Ricketts (marlenalilly): Oh, I had not heard any at all yet. I don't get out enough.
Zoe Foodiboo: Great. Thank you, Herr Knot.
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, a few housekeeping notes before we get started…
In April, we'll discuss the last two chapters of Weitz's book. Since May is busy with Blutmai and the sim anniversary, let's discuss our next book in June. Please send me your book suggestions via IM, via Facebook, or via email - zoe.foodiboo@gmail.com.
The other thing I wanted to briefly talk about is hosting/moderating since we now have a pretty stable group of participants. Many of you live in Berlin and I think it would be fun to have our discussions in new environments. It's also interesting when different people lead the discussion...different moderators might lead us in very different directions. So, if you're interested in hosting and/or moderating, just let me know. IM, FB or email...whatever is easiest
Zoe Foodiboo: okay, so onto the book!
Zoe Foodiboo: For this discussion, we're focusing on Chapters 5, 6, 7 of Weimar Germany: Promise and Tragedy by Eric Weitz. If you didn't do the reading - no problem. These chapters focused on architecture, film, photography, and literature of the Weimar era.
Pauline Clary nods
Zoe Foodiboo: and philosophy apparently....but I'm not sure any of us read that far.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (LOL)
Adele Kling giggles
Zoe Foodiboo blushes with embarrassment
Sir10Lee Knot (sir10lee) admits it's today first time he learns about this book
Zoe Foodiboo: But never mind - shall we start with architecture?
Pauline Clary: ok
Zoe Foodiboo: What changes do we see in architecture during the Weimar Era?
Zoe Foodiboo: as described in the book or just from your own research?
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): I was struck by the extraordinary degree of change--in the architecture, as in other areas--it seemed so much less a gradual change, and so much more a radical revolution, in ways.
AlasAndAlack: Total rejection of the "traditional" - from the roof to the furniture.
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes. And influenced by the effects of war.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Yes, exactly.
Zoe Foodiboo whispers: Hello Herr Kondor
Sir10Lee Knot (sir10lee): hello steady
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Mhm, I think it points so profoundly to the birth of the modern era--the emphasis on the masses, usefulness, simplicity--over the old: decorative, traditional, etc.
AlasAndAlack: Hallo Herr Kondor.
Zoe Foodiboo: Welcome! Please help yourself to a cocktail. They're in the book in front of Eloise. Just click and select.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): hallo, Steadman! :)
AlasAndAlack giggles. "At least I pretend to offer tea as well as cocktails.
Pauline Clary: Hallo :)
Zoe Foodiboo: For those who haven't read the book....there was a departure from the traditional angled structures and pitched roofs.
Pauline Clary: Utopian view of the architects
Zoe Foodiboo: We saw more curves, the use of glass and concrete…
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, and as Pauline said, a utopian perspective
Zoe Foodiboo: ((oh I forgot tea! sorry!))
AlasAndAlack: ((Jk))
Pauline Clary: danke
Zoe Foodiboo: ((conversations are better when fueled by booze anyway))
Sir10Lee Knot (sir10lee): haha
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): hello
Adele Kling: Form and function, lots of light, completely deviating from the stuffy, overly -decorative, and dark Victorian buildings of the past.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): For me, at least, I think of the pre-1914 world as "ornate" in ways, but post-1918, it seems so much more about a kind of modern simplicity--in line, in curves, in the shapes of buildings, like the author describes the Schocken department store, for instance.
Zoe Foodiboo: The chapter on architecture focused mainly on Bruno Taut, Mendelsohn, and, of course, Gropius.
Sir10Lee Knot (sir10lee): hallo sassa
Zoe Foodiboo: Hi Sasa
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): the intellectuals have gathered? ;)
AlasAndAlack: The new technology in building also contributed to the new style - concrete and steel allowed the structural integrity to be moved away from the outer walls - allowing the glass windows on the outside.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Hallo, Sasa! :)
AlasAndAlack: Hallo Sasa!
Pauline Clary: Hi Sas!
Adele Kling: Hallo
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes and the curves & use of light in the building of the Schocken to turn it into a "Temple of Consumerism" was it?
Steadman Kondor: nods to Frl Alack's observation. Something about the Einstein tower is related to this too
Adele Kling: For the department store, yes.
Zoe Foodiboo: The broad glass windows used to allow natural light, which highlighted the merchandise within.
Marlena Lilly Ricketts (marlenalilly): I like that term Temple of Consumerism.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (I thought this was lovely, too, how we were doing this reading about the architecture while Frau Jo was adding the new (modern) building outside the train station. Coincidence, surely, but really great.)
Adele Kling: : )
Steadman Kondor: you mean the bauhaus studio? hehe
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Mhm, I LOVE it!
Zoe Foodiboo: Oh yes, I'd love to talk about too - the places in our sim where we see these modern elements.
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, and Adele's building too - lots of glass!
Adele Kling: ahem
Steadman Kondor: wonderful! anyone feeling creative and bauhaus please talk to me later about contributing to the studio :)
AlasAndAlack: Yes! Now when I walk down the street I think - oh look - chapter 5 in action!
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (Yes, I love Adele's studio, too.) :)
Zoe Foodiboo whispers: Sasa, I think there's a chair next to Pauline
Adele Kling: One of the first modernized, I have central heating.
Zoe Foodiboo: Or I can rez a different one?
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): thank you
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Yes, exactly, Alas!
Adele Kling: hehe
Steadman Kondor smiles and welcomes fraulein sasa
Zoe Foodiboo: Here, I have a Barcelona chair for someone to sit on :)
AlasAndAlack: ((Tea on table, cocktails hidden in the book in front of Eloise))
Zoe Foodiboo: ((Thank you, Alas))
Steadman Kondor: it's shocking how contemporary the style is, which means, what we consider modern... aint so modern! hehe
Steadman Kondor grins at the cocktail
Zoe Foodiboo waits for Eloise to gasp
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): my kind of book
Adele Kling: haha
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): I was also struck by how the author oscillates (very reasonably) between praise for certain works, and then when many of these architects left Berlin and went elsewhere, how many of their works were subpar. In fact, he mentions one who came back--I forgot who it was--and created some unflattering housing, for instance. It really points to the spirit of the times.
AlasAndAlack: ((I'm am being a backup Zoe today))
Zoe Foodiboo: Was it the Einstein Tower he criticized?
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (I should clarify that comment: To the force and spirit of the time, which contributed so much to the work being created.)
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (Oh no, he seems to consider that one a great work, let me look in the book and see if I can be more specific.) :)
Adele Kling: No, I forgot which.
Pauline Clary hear pages turning wildly
Adele Kling: Building in Tel Aviv?
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, you're right. It was the art critic who criticized it
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Okay, here's a passage that captures what I mean: "But in exile, none of these three was able to equal the best of his work of the Weimar years." (page 205 in my edition)
Zoe Foodiboo: Weitz called it an "elegant sculpture, rendered in great mass"
Adele Kling: Yes, but we are also talking, what 20 years later?
Pauline Clary: Ah yeah I was surprised to read the PanAm building was from Mendelsohn
Zoe Foodiboo: and praised the use of concrete to hide load bearing features.
Steadman Kondor: budget can be a limitation on those housing architecture too mind you
Zoe Foodiboo: Any thoughts on Walter Gropius and his Bauhaus group?
Pauline Clary: Dangerous houses
Sir10Lee Knot (sir10lee): i wonder how much of opinions given are 'colored' by the nationality & politics of the time it was written
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Another passage: "Torn by Nazi repression from their grounding in turbulent excitement and hopeful optimism of Weimar Germany, Taut, Mendelsohn, and Gropius could never quite find their bearings again, never produced buildings that matched their greatest creations of the 1920s and early 1930s."
Pauline Clary: especially when drunk
Steadman Kondor: some have argued they have failed in promoting their ideas, but i think they were ahead of their time, hehe
Adele Kling: haha, Pauline
Zoe Foodiboo: Exile did seem to have a negative effect on their creative output
AlasAndAlack: What strikes me most about Gropius is how short the time span was for his "great works."
AlasAndAlack: What was it? Barely a decade? He opened the school, it became famous, he was run out of Germany and everything collapsed for him.
Steadman Kondor: then the war interrupted... their contrast to edwardian and art deco style of building is striking
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): I was struck by what I consider a deeply (largely correct) modern point of view: no longer are there "great men" in the Hegelian tradition, but more great people who, for their greatness, depend on an environment, a culture, a people, a time. :)
Zoe Foodiboo: I really appreciated his approach to education - blurring lines and encouraging students to study & create both craft and "traditional" art forms.
Steadman Kondor: yes :) frl zoe
Steadman Kondor: i saw arts and crafts of different modes at the RL bauhaus arkiv last year
Steadman Kondor: it was inspiring
Adele Kling: That was the career of many artists, unfortunately, during this period. Very short-lived, despite enormous success.
AlasAndAlack: His name and his school are still revered - what an incredible feat!
Zoe Foodiboo: I love that, Eloise :)
Zoe Foodiboo: I wanna go there, Steadman!
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Me, too, tickets for everybody in the group! LOL
Zoe Foodiboo: ((I think I'm reading the chat too slowly - I can't keep up! :P))
Adele Kling: hehe
Steadman Kondor: i think the bauhaus principles recognised that technology will change mankind, their philosophy is a new aesthetic that will allow a new design aesthetic that will make human/technology combine more harmoniously
Pauline Clary raises finger
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, Pauline?
Pauline Clary: I have to p, Miss
Pauline Clary: I mean..
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (Oh, I like how you put that, Steadman.) :)
Pauline Clary: The Bauhaus we have here in Berlin. Is that real?
Zoe Foodiboo: pee?
Adele Kling: hehe
Pauline Clary: I think I can hold hihi
Steadman Kondor: frau jo shared some inspiration pix for the latest build, so it is quite true to the rl
Zoe Foodiboo looks confused but keeps reading
Adele Kling nods
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): It's striking, the minute you get out of the station and look around. I LOVE it. (I know, I already said that. LOL)
Zoe Foodiboo: The Babylon is also based on a real building.
Pauline Clary: And our Bauhaus?
Adele Kling: Most of Jo's works are
AlasAndAlack: I saw those inspirational pix and then the final build - I so enjoyed watching that work in progress approach.
Zoe Foodiboo: Our Bauhaus apartment building?
Pauline Clary: yes
Zoe Foodiboo: I think she included elements from different RL buildings...but I'm not sure.
Adele Kling: The lovely Nussbaum, where I have lukewarm soup most days
Zoe Foodiboo: There is more use of glass in this version than in the older one.
Adele Kling: The Adlon
Pauline Clary: Onkel Tom's Siedlung is still popular in RL Berlin
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, the 'Nuss looks exactly like the real one. And a good example of more traditional architecture.
Adele Kling: Train station?
Zoe Foodiboo: I looked that up, Pauline!
Adele Kling: Yes!
Adele Kling: On Alexanderplatz
Zoe Foodiboo: The apartments near the trainstation.
Pauline Clary: yes
Zoe Foodiboo: the Onkel Tom apartments I mean.
Pauline Clary: yes
Zoe Foodiboo: Taut's work - and it's nice to see it in color.
Adele Kling: Yes, they are on Alexanderplatz
Pauline Clary: I posted a video a whle ago
Pauline Clary: they where talking Taut color schemes
Zoe Foodiboo: The reconfiguration of the interior design too. Kitchen separated into their own rooms and indoor plumbing.
Steadman Kondor: these are some of the bauhaus buildign principles i found:
Steadman Kondor: Simpicity,Symmetry, Angularity,Abstraction
Consistency,Unity, Organization,Economy
Subtlety,Continuity, Regularity,Sharpness, Monochomaticity
Zoe Foodiboo: Those apartments were built for a nuclear family model, rather than the extended family model.
Adele Kling: Incredible the thought they put into making a woman's household chores easier.
Steadman Kondor: with the separate kitchen?
Steadman Kondor: :)
Zoe Foodiboo: That certainly made things cleaner, I think.
Adele Kling said in a sarcastic tone
Zoe Foodiboo: lol
Adele Kling: hehe
Zoe Foodiboo notices the time
Zoe Foodiboo: Shall we talk a little about the next chapter?
Zoe Foodiboo: photography and film?
Adele Kling: Radio
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Let's!
Steadman Kondor: radio!
Zoe Foodiboo: yes, radio
Zoe Foodiboo: and magazines too
AlasAndAlack: Yes, bringing the world to our doorstep.
Zoe Foodiboo: Before you all got here, Alas and I started talking about Leica's and how it changed storytelling
Adele Kling: What an incredible time
Steadman Kondor: yes i had an aha moment when they said, radio, cinema and (something else) was linked - due to the voice transmission technology
Zoe Foodiboo: yes, and providing a bigger window to the outside world
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): I felt that chapter was one of the very best so far, I could almost imagine the scope of that transition, it made me realize so much that we take for granted.
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes! So true Elo!
Adele Kling: Leicas continue to be the best (non-digital) cameras to this day.
Steadman Kondor: yes, and so expensive. i covet one, lol
Adele Kling nods
Zoe Foodiboo: Sort of similar to now, the deluge of information.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (It was almost like a pre-Internet revolution, but of the same scope, and interestingly, for very similar reasons.)
Adele Kling: Range finders, not easy to operate, uber pricey
Steadman Kondor: the author of our book wondered, who was listening to those political speeches when everyone loved the cinema so much
AlasAndAlack: Expensive as they were, they were a huge step less expensive and more portable than their predecessors.
Adele Kling: Yes, but not compared to a Brownie
Adele Kling: hehe
AlasAndAlack: A rich person could own a camera, instead of a large company.
Zoe Foodiboo: We talk about information overload with the internet today, but I wonder if they felt that way back then - radio, photos, cinema all brought much more information to your home.
AlasAndAlack: True, there were less expensive cameras to come!
Zoe Foodiboo: or closer to you anyway
Adele Kling: Eastman Kodiak pioneer the affordable, every man's camera.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (Great question!)
Adele Kling: *Kodak
Adele Kling: *everyday
Adele Kling: oy, bit tired
Steadman Kondor: kodak came from the US? or did i remember that wrong
Zoe Foodiboo: So, as our rp selves, would any of us owned a camera?
AlasAndAlack: I loved that story about the man telling his wife that they could hear a person singing in another city or even another country, and she said "you are crazy! no one can sing that loud!"
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, I guess Adele does.
Adele Kling: Absolutely, ROchester, NY
Steadman Kondor smiles and says yes
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (Honestly, I've really loved this book, but nothing made me want to travel back in the past as much as Chapter 6. I could almost FEEL and SEE the changes afoot.)
Zoe Foodiboo: Ha, that was a cute story.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (LOL Yes, Alas. :) )
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, Elo - it's easy to see why it was such an exciting time in Berlin!
Adele Kling: I have a bunch of awful cameras.
AlasAndAlack nods at Eloise - this chapter really made it come alive.
Adele Kling: haha
Sir10Lee Knot (sir10lee): ((if i realize the changes that i lived thru in RL myself ...))
Adele Kling: The Kino must have been the most exciting thing in the world for people during this time.
Adele Kling: And the radio.
Marlena Lilly Ricketts (marlenalilly): (I have to be going, so I'll poof quietly away. I've enjoyed this!)
Sir10Lee Knot (sir10lee): see you marlene
Zoe Foodiboo whispers: bye Marlena! thanks for coming!
Adele Kling: Nice to have met you Marlena, Tchuess.
AlasAndAlack: ((Bye Marlene. Glad you could come!))
Marlena Lilly Ricketts (marlenalilly) waves and steps quietly away.
Steadman Kondor: waves
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, Adele. And people got dressed to attend the cinema back then - so nice!
Pauline Clary: Ciao Marlene!
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (take care, Marlena, wonderful to meet you!)
AlasAndAlack: ((I was wondering if Alas might be bitten by the photography bug. She would waste money on something new. And possibly frivolous.))
Zoe Foodiboo: Now people go to the movie theatre in their pajamas practically.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (Or worse, Zoe. LOL)
Adele Kling: haha
Zoe Foodiboo shakes her head and sighs
Steadman Kondor: people go to the opera in jeans now even
Zoe Foodiboo: No - really?
Steadman Kondor: so even more for movies, hehe
Steadman Kondor: yes the occassional....
Adele Kling: and board planes in short pants!
Zoe Foodiboo: I don't know if Zoe would've gotten into photography...
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Yes, exactly. I live in Southern California in RL and go to the opera and symphony when I can, and people aren't even questioned if they show up in jeans.
AlasAndAlack: ((Sorry that was mean spirited of me to say))
Adele Kling shakes head sadly
Zoe Foodiboo: I think Zoe would've bought tons of magazines though - as a means to armchair travel
Adele Kling: Speaking of magazines,
Zoe Foodiboo: hmmm?
AlasAndAlack: Magazines! And how close they were considered to art - that will come up in my next exhibit in my art gallery.
Sir10Lee Knot (sir10lee): i'ld love to go to this one classic concert hall event where people dress as weird as they can: the last night of the proms
Adele Kling: Great idea, Alas.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Oh, I'll look forward to that, Alas. :)
Zoe Foodiboo: Nice! Yes - have these chapters inspired any rp ideas for anyone?
AlasAndAlack: Were you going to say more on that subject Adele?
Zoe Foodiboo: oh yes, sorry - go ahead Adele
Adele Kling: Lets skip it.
Zoe Foodiboo: Are you sure?
Zoe Foodiboo: Okay...
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (One thing for sure, with me: These chapters have made me really love and appreciate what all of you do here in Berlin. :) )
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, I'm curious if anyone got any rp ideas from the reading?
Zoe Foodiboo hugs Elo
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (Seriously, I don't have a lot of creative skills, and I don't have a lot of historical knowledge, so when I learn more, and see what everybody does here, it just makes me beam.) :)
Zoe Foodiboo: I agree!
AlasAndAlack: It definitely dovetails into the exhibit I am doing - Women in Dadaist art. April 19th. Posters to come out in a few days.
Adele Kling: My idea to is to continue to feature more women photographers of the Weimar period
Zoe Foodiboo: Berlin is full of talent!
AlasAndAlack: And for my RP personally - I think I will buy a Leica.
Adele Kling: I liked that the author couldn't mention one.
Zoe Foodiboo: That sounds exciting, ladies!
Sir10Lee Knot (sir10lee): make sure to get me an announcement in the magazin, alas
Pauline Clary: I'll build me an Einstein Tower
Sir10Lee Knot (sir10lee): could be a editorial one
Zoe Foodiboo: oh my! ambitious!
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (Ooooo, cool, Pauline!)
Adele Kling: haha, Pauline
AlasAndAlack: Elo, your story lines are fun!
Steadman Kondor: hurray for the einstein tower :)
AlasAndAlack: Ohh, Pauline.
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): sorry for being very quiet, but I do enjoy listening to the brainier Berliners talking :)
Zoe Foodiboo: I'm really glad you're here, Sasa :)
Adele Kling: Brains? With all the booze we drink?
Adele Kling: haha
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (LOL)
AlasAndAlack: Adele, I learn so much from your exhibits - I never see the kind of things you show elsewhere.
Zoe Foodiboo: And I hope you'll come next month - we're going to talk a little about sex I think!
Pauline Clary: Finally!
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): yeah Adele's exhibits are great
Adele Kling: Oh yeah.
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): about sex?
Steadman Kondor: :) hehe oh THAT chapter. the first i read?
Zoe Foodiboo: Everyone here does amazing work.
AlasAndAlack: Of course she sees our brains. They leak out when we are drinking :)
Adele Kling: I will be here for that
Zoe Foodiboo: Steadman skipped straight to that chapter!
Adele Kling: Aw, thank you.
Adele Kling blushes
Steadman Kondor: i think everyone can be creative frl eloise. it's our natural state of being
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen) gasps and spews wine at Zoe's words. "Mother warned me!"
AlasAndAlack: Yes, sex is next chapter. We will listen to Sasa explain it for us.
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, it's almost time for El D - any last comments?
Pauline Clary: That's the chapter I will get most out of I hope
Adele Kling: Yes, Steadman
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, and the chapter after that is about revolution...
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): I need to read it first :P
Pauline Clary: The book's a pleasant read
Zoe Foodiboo: So we can get ideas for Blutmai.
Pauline Clary: easy to read too
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, thanks for coming everyone!
Holly's cat is so teeny--just six months old but such a little guy. He's totally down with being photographed--hears the shutter and maintains eye contact while you take a few shots. Such a pro.
Photo Credit: Pauline Clary
Zoe Foodiboo: Well then, shall we get started?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): OK!
AlasAndAlack nods.
Zoe Foodiboo: I do want to mention that I've only read up to chapter 2
Zoe Foodiboo: So...ummm....if I don't say much about the other chapters, that's why
Zoe Foodiboo: :P
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): We are supposed to read up to…
Zoe Foodiboo: oh, Chapter 4
AlasAndAlack: Chapter 4.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Ah, OK!
Pauline Clary: you could have fooled me, Zoe :)
AlasAndAlack: I've read to Chapter 4, but I'm hardly an expert on this subject, so I'm hoping to let others lead.
AlasAndAlack: Yay, Eloise.
Zoe Foodiboo smiles at Eloise
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam) shamefully admits he hasn't read anything
Zoe Foodiboo: oh good, it felt weird with you over there
Zoe Foodiboo: Oh, you haven't?
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (There, I made it over, I thought there wasn't room, but there is! LOL)
AlasAndAlack: No problem, Abi, an audience is good too.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Well, firstly I thought the book is more about Berlin gay scene, but actually it's focusing more on the human rights movement.
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, I can tell you that Chapter 1 is about Karl Urning
Zoe Foodiboo: oh wait, Karl Ulrichs
Zoe Foodiboo: lol
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Yes, Karl's history is amazing.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): ah yes, i know about him
Zoe Foodiboo: he was a kind of intellectual freedom fighter too
AlasAndAlack: How brave of him, to speak up like that. When what he was saying could have put him in jail.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005) nods
Zoe Foodiboo: Fighting for the right to get his writings published
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): What he was doing was just the same as 20th and 21st century. It's really amazing and interesting.
Zoe Foodiboo: and yes, I thought he was very brace, standing up and coming out to his colleagues like that
Zoe Foodiboo: brave, rather
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Yes, Zoe. And I'm still wondering how he got to that place.
AlasAndAlack: Even to his family, who weren't happy about it, but kept telling him they loved him anyway. Lucky man.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): I mean....self-recognition, self-esteem.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Yes, Alas, that's amazing, too.
Zoe Foodiboo: I think that had something to do with it...having a supportive family. I mean, they weren't supportive in the contemporary sense but they didn't shun him.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Oh, I think they're really supportive enough even in the sense of today.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): There are lots of families abandon their children because of their sexuality.
Zoe Foodiboo nods
AlasAndAlack: I have to say I was confused by the first chapter. The author seemed to be saying there was no recognition or tolerance of homosexuality before the 1890-1920s time period, but - what about ancient Greece? What about some of the Roman military legions? There are other examples throughout history.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): In that sense, Karl's family was far ahead of the time, too.
Zoe Foodiboo: That's true, Gustav
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): did the book elaborate on his ideas of Urning/Uranian? i've always found it a bit odd, but i guess that's the best way they could describe what they were feeling
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): I think, Christianity suppressed that history, Abi.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Yes, that Uranian part was bit missing.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): I think the author just gave us very rough outline of the history.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): i mean, he described it as having 'female psyche in male body', or something to that effect. not quite how we would understand it today
Zoe Foodiboo: psychological hermaphodites
Duncan Armundsen: hmm, but that's not homosexuality
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): yup
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): Uranians had such ideas
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): But for the most of people, it's quite easy to understand.
AlasAndAlack: Ulrich had to come up with his own word because there was not one to describe himself.
Zoe Foodiboo: Was that what Karl said or someone else said it?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005) nods to Alas.
Duncan Armundsen: That causes misunderstandings
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): i think it was him, but i would need to look it up and check
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): yup, it was him
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): wikipedia…
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): His first five essays, collected as Forschungen über das Rätsel der mannmännlichen Liebe (Studies on the Riddle of Male-Male Love), explained such love as natural and biological, summed up with the Latin phrase anima muliebris virili corpore inclusa (a female psyche confined in a male body).
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): I'm not sure about but there were some movement to try to capture the image of homosexuality in that way in psychology.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): ((OK :) ))
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): I think that's how they could understand homosexuality at most in those days....
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): yes, i was wondering
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): ...if that would be a more acceptable theory for people
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): at that time
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Yes.
Duncan Armundsen: I think not
AlasAndAlack: Then in Chapter 3, the book talks about Magnus Hirschfeld and his medical description of how there is kind of a continuum of sexual identities. I don't know how relevant that is to us today ( as if I would know what is relevant today), but what sticks with me is that he wanted to scientifically define homosexuality as congenital. Not some perversion caused by bad circumstances in life.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): yes, i'm also not so sure, that's why i asked if the book mentions anything
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): No, I don't think I fund anything more explanation in that book.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): the idea of fluid identities is still present in contemporary gender theory
Duncan Armundsen: Yes, it is one of several sexual identities, maybe that was meant.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): The book is just giving us very rough outline of the history and the info based on that.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): right
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): (i need to start reading the books discussed here lol)
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Oh, Magnus is really great. He's adorable.
AlasAndAlack: Just trying to sum up what the historical people thought. And how that affected history.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): ((hahaha))
AlasAndAlack: He's adorable? How do you mean, Gustav?
Duncan Armundsen: I would like, but not easy available here. There is too much german literature about already.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): oh yes
AlasAndAlack: ((I bet you have much better resources than we have in America!))
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): As you said, he tried to establish the human rights of gay people.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Awwww, I envy you, Duncan
Duncan Armundsen: I think not, often also the same, but this book is quite special and not very known in Germany.
AlasAndAlack: Do you think Hirschfeld was misguided, Gustav? A number of his contempories thought his agenda actually delayed the acceptance of gay rights.
Zoe Foodiboo: oh, it hasn't been translated into german?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): That's a controversial part, Alas.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Yes, I agree with you, but at the same time,
Duncan Armundsen: Only as orignal import at Amazon available.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): he tried to do his best to liberate the movent.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): *movement
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): So, toward the chapter 7, 8
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): lots of conflicts among gay regarding the human rights movement happened.
AlasAndAlack: If I were there, I think I would have bet on Hirschfeld. The other side, the "masculinists" sound like hotheads to me. Brandt was always getting arrested. The book called him a loose cannon.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Yes, also it's a pity to see somehow that masculinity idea relates to the aggressive nationalism movement....
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): It's a personal thing, but I'm dealing with gay rights movement in RL almost 30 years. It's quite interesting to see people's perception towards who was right and who was wrong changes a lot.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Someone was doing something for gay at his best at that time, but then later some people start saying he's wrong, what he was doing was not right.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): The history is just the same.
Zoe Foodiboo: I think with any movement that's true. It's easy to judge in retrospect.
AlasAndAlack: Very true.
Duncan Armundsen: I am a bit surprised that this book is about Hirschfeld.
AlasAndAlack: Not just in history. In art. In literature.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Yes. That's why, for me, Magnus is still adorable because he was trying to liberate the sexual minority in his way as much as possible.
AlasAndAlack: Not about Hirshfeld. He is one chapter.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): How is he recognized in German, Duncan?
Zoe Foodiboo: He's referenced in Chapter 1....oh that's an interesting question, Gustav
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): I wonder, too, as with any movement, the extent to which it should be praised (or not) given its historical context versus our contemporary perception. We say of Ancient Greece it was the birthplace of democracy, but it was a far cry from a democracy by contemporary standards, just as an example.
Duncan Armundsen: different, he got honored but also much critic.
AlasAndAlack: Hirschfeld is an important figure in the field, no doubt.
AlasAndAlack: Good point, Eloise.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005) nods to Eloise
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Honored but also much critic, I totally understand that.
Duncan Armundsen: Well, I am not so sure about, too complicated, and difficult to translate for me. He connected homosexuality with psychology, some kind of insanity.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005) nods
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): I once took a history class that described Ancient Athens as a small speck on the map, surrounded by a great gate, and there--just there--was a time, a place, a culture ... that eventually gave birth to modern philosophy and science. In this case and context, does anyone see Berlin of the 20s in a similar way?
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): yes
Zoe Foodiboo: Like a psychological disorder? Something to be treated?
Zoe Foodiboo: I wish I'd read...
Duncan Armundsen: Also he didn't help when it started with the Nazis, he did more the opposite.
Duncan Armundsen: yes, like disorder
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Oh, that's an interesting idea, Eloise. Hmmm, true.
AlasAndAlack: An aberration. But congenital, not something that could be "cured." Which is why the police chose to monitor the grand same-sex balls, rather than try to jail and harrass the participants.
Duncan Armundsen: I think Berlin in the 20's was more much more openminded then after, the time from 1932 to the end of the 60's or so
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): yes, i remember he was criticized for treating homosexuality as a kind of disability, to elicit pity from the "normal" people, rather than having gays treated as equals
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005) nods
Zoe Foodiboo: Did he think that pity was the inbetween step toward acceptance?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Hmmm, I don't think he was thinking in that way, Zoe.
Zoe Foodiboo nods
Zoe Foodiboo: okay
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): possibly, i don't know. but he was a doctor, right? i think they tended to see it as a kind of humanitarian issue, of sorts
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): He was just believing that homosexuality is a kind of disablity.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): yes
Duncan Armundsen: and that made it even worser in the 3rd Reich
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): yes
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Yes, that's sad.
Duncan Armundsen: He also said homosexuals shouldn#t have children because of that disorder.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam) nods
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): But again, as I said, he was doing what he could have done at best at that time. That's why there are cons and pros towards him.
Zoe Foodiboo nods
Duncan Armundsen: That is the reason why he get honored again since the 70's
[2015/07/25 13:52] AlasAndAlack: irschfeld drew his conclusions from his studies of his patients. Then he created his Scientific-Humantarian Commitee, with the police comissioner he helped create the tolerance of the gay bars and costume balls that Berlin and WEimar republic were famous for. But yes, it had a darker side.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005) nods, that's true.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): BTW, I really think we should have more costume parties!
AlasAndAlack: Interesting, that he never said whether he was gay himself.
AlasAndAlack: Yes, costume parties, I vote for that!
Zoe Foodiboo: Sorry, so Hirschfeld himself was a - oh...I was just asking that! lol
Zoe Foodiboo: I just assumed he was....
AlasAndAlack: He never admitted it.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Maybe it's because to deal with authorities.
AlasAndAlack: But he never married.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): He had a partner for a long time.
Zoe Foodiboo: Oh he did?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Yes.
AlasAndAlack: It took me a long time to find that information!
AlasAndAlack: Not in the book.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): The partner became the curator of the sexual science museum.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): And helped Magnus.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): what was the name of that film he acted in? i think that one is still available (i might be wrong)
Zoe Foodiboo: Ah, interesting.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): "Different from others".
Duncan Armundsen: Interesting is that they were close to legalize homosexuality in Germany at the end of the 20's.
Zoe Foodiboo: and yet he still affirmed that it was a disorder?
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): ah yes
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): Anders als die Andern
AlasAndAlack: But then there was a sensational sex crime
AlasAndAlack: and public opinion swayed the vote.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Yes, Duncan. That's why I'm so interested in this period. They're far ahead of time.
AlasAndAlack: Was that the one at the end of the 20s, Duncan? Or was that an earlier time?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Still even lots of gay think Stonewall Riot in 1969 was the beginning of the human rights movement. Nah, that's not true. 1920s Berlin was far ahead of the time.
Duncan Armundsen: very close to the end, 1929, they wanted to change law about homosexuality completely.
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, I thought that too. About Stonewall.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Yes, but unfortunately because of the Depression, they gave up. That's really sad.
Duncan Armundsen: legalize "easy homosexuality"
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (Oh, Gustav, that's a great point, in fact, the author says the same thing at the end of an interview, I sent Zoe the link, let me see if I can find it again.)
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): ((Great! Thank you, Eloise!))
Zoe Foodiboo: if anyone has any articles to share, maybe we can share them in our FB group too. I, for one, feel like I need more information.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (Here it is: www.npr.org/2014/12/17/371424790/between-world-wars-gay-c...)
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Thank you!
Duncan Armundsen: But the government got already unable to create new laws, sorry I can't better translate rofl
Zoe Foodiboo: I'm finding everything you're saying very interesting, D.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Unable to create new laws, that's another sad part, Duncan.
Zoe Foodiboo: So what are the laws in Germany today, D?
Zoe Foodiboo: I'm just curious....
Duncan Armundsen: This law is anyway very interesting, it got dtronger in the 1930's and after the war they took the law unchanged for the new republic.
Zoe Foodiboo: ((hold still, I forgot to take a photo))
Pauline Clary: As you may have noticed, my contribution was solely through lenses and oculars :-) I have posted a few in our FB group.
Duncan Armundsen: This law got softer in the end of the 60's and at the reunion it got removed completely.
Pauline Clary: No need Zoe!
Zoe Foodiboo: oh you did? I'll just steal yours then
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam) fixes quickly his hair for the photo
Pauline Clary: Will post a few on Flickr also
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): hahaha, Abi
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): lol
Pauline Clary: Too late Abi lol
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): aww
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005) nods to Duncan
Duncan Armundsen: This law denied sex between men and (!) sex between humans and animals, same law
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Oh my goodness!
Zoe Foodiboo: I remember reading about that law in the book
Pauline Clary: heavens
Zoe Foodiboo: But now everyone can marry?
Duncan Armundsen: in the end of the 60's they removed the animals and denied only sex between a man older then 18 years with a man under 18.
AlasAndAlack: Laws can be strange.
Duncan Armundsen: so 2 below 18 were allowed.
Duncan Armundsen: Yes, you can marry, but that is another law.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): So, older and younger, only that combination is prohibited?
Pauline Clary: Sorry folks, I need to leave now.
Duncan Armundsen: was, yes till 1990
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (Pardon me for a few moments, going to post a picture of us on FB!) :)
Zoe Foodiboo: okies, bye Pauline!
AlasAndAlack: Thanks for coming, Pauline.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): bye Pauline
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Take care, Pauline!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Bye Pauline!
Duncan Armundsen: and this law was criminal law
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Ah, yes, that's understandable now.
Zoe Foodiboo: oh....but we still have that law in the US too
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (Oh wait, those were Pauline's photos, anyway, they're good! LOL)
Zoe Foodiboo: adults/minors
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): yes
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005) nods
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): i'm not sure what the age of consent is now here, maybe 16? or 14? not sure
Duncan Armundsen: This law doesn't exist here anymore, it was always unneeded
AlasAndAlack: It varies in the US by state.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): but it isn't used, it's just formally on the books still
Duncan Armundsen: We have other law that saves children already
Zoe Foodiboo: Oh, I see.
Duncan Armundsen: has also nothing to do with homosexuality
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): but yes, child protection laws are separate
Duncan Armundsen: were always
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005) nods
AlasAndAlack: That is a good way to organize the law.
Zoe Foodiboo nods
Duncan Armundsen: But Zoe asked about marriage
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): yes
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): ((BRB))
Duncan Armundsen: I said you can marry, that is also true, but still in Germany not with all rights.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): ((back))
Zoe Foodiboo: oh?
Duncan Armundsen: Thanks -at this time - our christian government.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Marriage equality!
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): (brb)
Duncan Armundsen: They still say it hurds families.
Zoe Foodiboo: so you can legally marry another man but that marriage does not have the same rights as a heterosexual marriage?
Duncan Armundsen: but merkel cuddles lol
Zoe Foodiboo: heh, merkel
Duncan Armundsen: That is right, Zoe
Zoe Foodiboo: How does it hurt families?
Duncan Armundsen: But we are close to get all rights.
Duncan Armundsen: Because we can't make children.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): awwww
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): (back)
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): ((wb))
Duncan Armundsen: They act a bit like the catholic church ;-)
AlasAndAlack: Are homosexual couples allowed to adopt? Or am I changing the subject?
AlasAndAlack: Well there are children who need homes.
Duncan Armundsen: They are allowed, no problem if it your own child anyway, but judges often prefer man/woman couples.
AlasAndAlack: I know a gay couple who wants to adopt and can't. Just curious.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): The ability to produce children as a criterion for marriage is absurd. Were that even remotely meaningful, the state would require heterosexual couples to provide--what--sperm samples before marriage licenses would be issued? LOL
Duncan Armundsen: So if my hubby would have a child, I could adopt it easily
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): indeed
AlasAndAlack nods.
Duncan Armundsen: It is, Eloise. but many states in germany are conservative, and they say no the equality.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005): Well, unfortunately I have to go now. I'll be back for the school later though.
Zoe Foodiboo: okay
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): bye G
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Take care, Gustav!
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): I'd better run, too, so good to join everyone. :)
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): thank you for hosting the book club, Alas
AlasAndAlack: My pleasure.
The following is a chat log from our April 16th bookclub event. Photo credit: Pauline Clary
__________
Zoe Foodiboo: I think we might be a smaller group today than last week. Two people gave me poems to read on their behalf.
Zoe Foodiboo: But, I think we should start with the people who are present today. Last week we read our poem, told the group why we chose it, then let the group share their thoughts. Shall we follow the same format today or....?
Zoe Foodiboo: Hello Herr Bereznyak, welcome.
Florian Blaisdale: Sure, I also have a youtube clip of my poem
Klaus Bereznyak: Evening all!
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): Oh, there he went
Pauline Clary: Abend!
Pauline Clary: Sounds good to me, Zoe
Zoe Foodiboo: Great! Who would like to go first?
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): Oh there you are, Klaus. I thought you'd left us for a minute
Florian Blaisdale: May I go first?
Klaus Bereznyak: I'm hiding in this chair :-)
Florian Blaisdale: Just to get it over with1
Zoe Foodiboo: /me giggles
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): /me knows the feeling
Zoe Foodiboo: Please do, Herr Blaisdale!
Florian Blaisdale: I have chosen something from 1920s Berlin Cabaret as poetry!
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): very good
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): oh wow
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): excellent
Pauline Clary: great
Florian Blaisdale: A selection from the cabaret song cycle "Lieder eines armen Mädchens" (A Poor Maiden's Songs) by Friedrich Hollaender …
Zoe Foodiboo: oh exciting
Florian Blaisdale: Have you heard of Hollaender?
Zoe Foodiboo: /me shakes her head
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): no
Florian Blaisdale: First a little about Hollaender: He composed music for productions by Max Reinhardt, was very involved in German Kabarett in the 20s, and wrote the film score for "Der blaue Engel"(1929) including the song "Ich bin von Kopf bis Fuß auf Liebe eingestellt"("Falling in Love Again") sung by Marlene Dietrich …
Zoe Foodiboo: ohhhh
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): sounded familiar
Florian Blaisdale: He left Germany because of his Jewish descent and emigrated to the USA in 1934, where he wrote music for more than 100 films, including many tunes for Marlene Dietrich, like
both words and music for the rather wry, socially critical songs "Black Market," "Illusions," and "The Ruins of Berlin" in the film "A Foreign Affair"...
Klaus Bereznyak: Prolific by all accounts!
Florian Blaisdale: That's the background
Florian Blaisdale: Now to Hollaender's 1920s cabaret song cycle and my selected poem: The cycle "Lieder eines armen Mädchens," written in between 1921 and 1924, ingeniously portrays the societal realities of poverty, suffering, depravity, and death from the perspective of a poor orphan girl named Lieschen Puderbach, who speaks/sings in a lower class Berlin dialect. The cycle is very dark, bit not without touches of wry humor here and there. Hollaender borrowed the name "Lieschen Puderbach" from a character in a Else Lasker-Schüler play, but most similarities end there. Now to the song in the cycle I have selected (it was hard to choose just one!), "Wenn ick mal tot bin" ("Once I'm Dead") …
Florian Blaisdale: (you can probably tell I rehearsed today)
Zoe Foodiboo: /me smiles
Florian Blaisdale: In "Wenn ick mal tot bin," orphan Lieschen morbidly fantasizes about her death and funeral, when people will finally pay attention to her. Here's a link if you would like to hear the poem in German: youtu.be/zJBV6ABuY7M The text ends at 1:42.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods
Florian Blaisdale: (listens to poem)
Florian Blaisdale: When the misc gets loud and clapping starts, the text ends
Florian Blaisdale: This is performed by German actress/singer Meret Becker (aside: I caught Meret once on tour with Nina Hagen singing Brecht/Weill songs)
Zoe Foodiboo: It sounds lighthearted and dreamy
Zoe Foodiboo: I can't understand her of course :P
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): it does
Zoe Foodiboo: almost childlike
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): I speak german fluently but I didn't understand much
Florian Blaisdale: Why I chose this: German cabaret was a field of study of mine as a German grad student
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): no kidding, wow!
Klaus Bereznyak: That struck me too - the childlike voice
Florian Blaisdale: Yes, it was in Berliner dialect and very fast
Florian Blaisdale: Let me explain it a bit
Zoe Foodiboo: /me leans in
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): /me leans forward curiously
Florian Blaisdale: Let me describe the text you just heard in English stanza by stanza: In the first of five stanzas, Lieschen describes how her whole school class will come out to see her all laid out in her coffin in a white silk dress, and how very nice that will be once she is dead: "Wenn ick mal tot bin, det wird zu scheen!"
Florian Blaisdale: In the following stanza, Pastor Eisenlohr reads Bible verse over her coffin, but Lieschen stays still because now that she's dead she can do what she likes.
Florian Blaisdale: but the most important stanza comes next …
Florian Blaisdale: The most important stanza, I think is the third, which I translate here:
When I am dead, they light candles with yellow flames
And put them right and left of me, very close,
Then a golden glow falls on my dead bones
And our teacher begins to cry terribly!
Only Auntie is very happy, because once I'm dead,
Once I'm dead, I don’t eat anymore.
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): /me nods
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): oh my god
Zoe Foodiboo: awww
Klaus Bereznyak: Ouch
Florian Blaisdale: There is the most socially critical point in the text
Florian Blaisdale: Two stanzas to go …
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): yes! Wow
Florian Blaisdale: In the following stanza, Lieschen describes how she wills her worldy goods to her friend Truden -her doll without a head, her red hairband, and her mother-of-pearl button - because Truden should think about her once she's dead.
Florian Blaisdale: In the last stanza, Lieschen exclaims: Once I'm dead, then my life finally begins ("wenn ick mal tot bin, fängt erst mein Leben an"). She describes how the angels will sing and the violins play when she floats into heaven and how the saints will all match in to recieiver her. The poem ends with "Wenn ick mal tot bin, is mein schönster Tach" ("Once I'm dead, that will be my finest day).
Florian Blaisdale: *march not match
Florian Blaisdale: That's it!
Zoe Foodiboo: that poor child…
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): so sad
Florian Blaisdale: Yes, what do you all think?
Klaus Bereznyak: And then the music plays!
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): I love it! Was this in song form?
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): very nice and beautiful
Florian Blaisdale: Yes, Klaus, in several arrangements
Florian Blaisdale: My favorite is by neo-cabaret artist Tim Fischer
Florian Blaisdale: Yes, Scout, too!
Klaus Bereznyak: And this was Cabaret! It always astounds me how dark that "entertainment" wass.
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): I would love to see this!
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): Very beautiful and also sad. I think it's also naive and childish in a way. Almost self-indulgent?
Florian Blaisdale: Yes, very dark - this was one of the lighter numbers of the cycle
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): frl Foodiboo, when everyone else has recited I may be able to recite one from my memory
Florian Blaisdale: Yes, innocent in a way - a child crying for attention
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): That's kind of party of why I like it
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): part
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods at Galina and smiles okay
Florian Blaisdale: I'm done if we should move on
Klaus Bereznyak: I hear Teruumi, there - It borders on melodrama in my ears.
Klaus Bereznyak: But I liked it, too.
Florian Blaisdale: yes - melpdrama
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): Yes, I agree!
Zoe Foodiboo: Well thank you, Herr Blaisdale. I really enjoyed that!
Florian Blaisdale: Something new for everybody, i hope
Zoe Foodiboo: Klaus, would you like to go next?
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): Yes! I'm writing this name down. Thank you!
Klaus Bereznyak: Gladly - thank you
Klaus Bereznyak: This will be a different kettle of fish so to speak
Klaus Bereznyak: Perhaps an interesting contrast to go to next
Zoe Foodiboo: /me smiles
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): sounds very promising
Zoe Foodiboo: It's all be great so far
Florian Blaisdale: yes!
Klaus Bereznyak: We ll ... I was curious as to whether our notable professor Herr Einstein could turn his hand to poetry as well as to everyting else.
Klaus Bereznyak: Alas - a few verses can be salvaged from his writing, but they are nothing to write home about.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods
Klaus Bereznyak: Nevertheless, he has inspired many. So this is apoem by Howard Moss - long time editor of the Poetry section of the New Yorker
Klaus Bereznyak: I'll let it speak for itself and perhaps say one or two comments after
Florian Blaisdale: New Yorker! love it already
-: /me Einstein’s Bathrobe
Zoe Foodiboo: /me helps herself to pie and nods
-: /me BY HOWARD MOSS
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): /me listens
Klaus Bereznyak: Points at the chat window
-: /me
-: /me I wove myself of many delicious strands
-: /me Of violet islands and sugar-balls of thread
-: /me So faintly green a small white check between
-: /me Balanced the field’s wide lawn, a plaid
-: /me Gathering in loose folds shaped around him
Cliff Eclipse: is offline.
-: /me Those Princeton mornings, slowly stage-lit, when
-: /me The dawn took the horizon by surprise
-: /me And from the marsh long, crayoned birds
-: /me Rose up, ravens, maybe crows, or raw-voiced,
-: /me Spiteful grackles with their clothespin legs,
-: /me Black-winged gossips rising out of mud
-: /me And clattering into sleep. They woke my master
-: /me While, in the dark, I waited, knowing
-: /me Sooner or later he’d reach for me
-: /me And, half asleep, wriggle into my arms.
-: /me Then it seemed a moonish, oblique light
-: /me Would gradually illuminate the room,
-: /me The world turn on its axis at a different slant,
-: /me The furniture a shipwreck, the floor askew,
-: /me And, in old slippers, he’d bumble down the stairs.
-: /me Genius is human and wants its coffee hot—
-: /me I remember mornings when he’d sit
-: /me For hours at breakfast, dawdling over notes,
-: /me Juice and toast at hand, the world awake
-: /me To spring, the smell of honeysuckle
-: /me Filling the kitchen. A silent man,
-: /me Silence became him most. How gently
-: /me He softened the edges of a guessed-at impact
-: /me So no one would keel over from the blow—
-: /me A blow like soft snow falling on a lamb.
-: /me He’d fly down from the heights to tie his shoes
-: /me And cross the seas to get a glass of milk,
-: /me Bismarck with a harp, who’d doff his hat
-: /me (As if he ever wore one!) and softly land
-: /me On nimble feet so not to startle. He walked
-: /me In grandeur much too visible to be seen—
-: /me And how many versions crawled out of the Press!
-: /me A small pre-Raphaelite with too much hair;
-: /me A Frankenstein of test tubes; a “refugee”—
-: /me A shaman full of secrets who could touch
-: /me Physics with a wand and body forth
-: /me The universe’s baby wrapped in stars.
-: /me From signs Phoenicians scratched into the sand
-: /me With sticks he drew the contraries of space:
-: /me Whirlwind Nothing and Volume in its rage
-: /me Of matter racing to undermine itself,
-: /me And when the planets sang, why, he sang back
-: /me The lieder black holes secretly adore.
-: /me
-: /me At tea at Mercer Street every afternoon
-: /me His manners went beyond civility,
-: /me Kindness not having anything to learn;
-: /me I was completely charmed. And fooled.
-: /me What a false view of the universe I had!
-: /me The horsehair sofa, the sagging chairs,
-: /me A fire roaring behind the firesecreen—
-: /me Imagine thinking Princeton was the world!
-: /me Yet I wore prescience like a second skin:
-: /me When Greenwich and Palomar saw eye to eye,
-: /me Time and space having found their rabbi,
-: /me I felt the dawn’s black augurs gather force,
-: /me As if I knew in the New Jersey night
-: /me The downcast sky that was to clamp on Europe,
-: /me That Asia had its future in my pocket.
Klaus Bereznyak: FIN
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): me claps
Zoe Foodiboo: /me applauds
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): /me applauds
Florian Blaisdale: Wonderful!
Pauline Clary: *•.¸'*•.¸ ♥ ¸.•*´¸.•*
Pauline Clary: .•*♥¨`• BRAVO!!!! •¨`♥*•.
Pauline Clary: ¸.•*`¸.•*´ ♥ `*•.¸`*•.¸
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): Wow!
Pauline Clary: oops
Zoe Foodiboo: /me grins at Pauline
Klaus Bereznyak: /me smiles appreciatively
Florian Blaisdale: Love all of the Princeton imagery - have seen the statue of Einstein sitting on a park bench in Princeton
Klaus Bereznyak: It's certainly evocative of place and that was its instant appeal for me
Zoe Foodiboo: Nice!
Klaus Bereznyak: Overall, the mundane in the life of a giant
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): I love so much of this-- "he'd cross the seas for a glass of milk."
Klaus Bereznyak: But I like the way the poem escalates rapidly to metaphysics - from the humble threads, to the great man's mind
Zoe Foodiboo: I love those types of details, especially from the lives of thinkers and creative types
Klaus Bereznyak: Yes!
Florian Blaisdale: Mu favorite verses: And when the planets sang, why, he sang back
The lieder black holes secretly adore.
Zoe Foodiboo: Wonderful, Herr Bereznyak - thank you for sharing!
Klaus Bereznyak: My pleasure!
Florian Blaisdale: Yes, beautiful!
Zoe Foodiboo: Ruumi went last week so....Pauline? Did you bring a poem?
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): Thank you!
Zoe Foodiboo: whispers: She might be taking photos
Zoe Foodiboo: Okay, let's go back to her in a bit....Scout?
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): Okay…
Zoe Foodiboo: It's okay if you didn't bring a poem, by the way :)
Zoe Foodiboo: Oh good.
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): I think I want to explain why I chose my poem before I read it. Because I don't want my poem choice to make it seem like I'm being a smart aleck.
Zoe Foodiboo: haha
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): My poem is relevant to the 1920s, but isn't German-specific.
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): I chose this poem because I think it demonstrates pretty well a thing that I love very much about the time we live in.
Pauline Clary: Oh sorry, I was clicking away *giggles*
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): :)
Pauline Clary: No, I didn't bring a poem
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): That is: It's unsentimental, straightforward and witty.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods
Zoe Foodiboo: Okay
Zoe Foodiboo: Great, Scout!
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): In other words, it cuts through the fussy, florid, sentimental Victorian ideals that many of us were raised on.
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): You might know it.
Zoe Foodiboo: Ah, IC. okay
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): Okay here goes:
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song,
A medley of extemporanea;
And love is a thing that can never go wrong;
And I am Marie of Roumania.
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): (Dorothy Parker)
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): That's the whole thing.
Zoe Foodiboo: oh!
Zoe Foodiboo: /me applauds
Klaus Bereznyak: Hurray
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): Have any of you read any other Dorothy Parker poems?
Pauline Clary: ★(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ * ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)★
Pauline Clary: APPLAUSE!!!
Pauline Clary: ★(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ * `'·.¸)`'·.¸)★
Klaus Bereznyak: Two truths and a lie?
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): I think all lies
Klaus Bereznyak: Three lies - four lies?
Florian Blaisdale: I'm sure I have! Lover her witticisms
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): very witty
Klaus Bereznyak: I wanted the first two to be truths but I couldn't run with the third
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): Men seldom make passes at girls who wear glasses.
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): Another one.
Klaus Bereznyak: Ha ha
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): /me smiles.
Florian Blaisdale: Algonquin Round Table wit tonight!
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): Yes!!
Pauline Clary: What does the last line mean?
Pauline Clary: "And I am Marie of Roumania."
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): It means that: she is NOT Marie of Roumania, and the other things aren't true either.
Pauline Clary: ah ok *taps her own head*
Klaus Bereznyak: Just a celebrity of the time? I wonder - like if I were to say I'm the king of Sweden
Florian Blaisdale: (my ex-partner did a dissertation on Marie of Romania, I think)
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): It helps if you read a bunch of her poems and get a feel for her voice. :)
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): Marie was (is) the queen of Romania
Klaus Bereznyak: Remarkable, Florian!
Florian Blaisdale: Dorothy Parker - what a voice of the 1920s!
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): YES!! I love her so much.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me grins
Zoe Foodiboo: Thanks, Scout!
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, Galina, why don't you go next and then I'll read the two from our absent bookworms
Klaus Bereznyak: It's a school night for me! New things to explore!
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): yes
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): I'm not going to do any preambling
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): not even going to say who wrote it, maybe you'll recognize
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): it's called "Attitude to a miss"
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): That night was to decide
if she and I
were to be lovers.
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): Under cover
of darkness
no one would see, you see.
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): I bent over her, it’s the truth,
and as I did,
it’s the truth, I swear it,
I said
like a kindly parent:
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): “Passion’s a precipice –
so won’t you please
move away?
Move away,
Please!”
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): the end
Zoe Foodiboo: /me grins and applauds
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): You know who wrote it?
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): /me applauds
Klaus Bereznyak: /me cheers
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): no!
Zoe Foodiboo: Mo?
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): haha
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): He also wrote "Conversation with Comrade Lenin"
Zoe Foodiboo: /me giggles
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): /me snickers
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): Vladimir Mayakovsky
Pauline Clary: wow
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): bolshevik poet
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): oh wow
Zoe Foodiboo: What a wonderful array of poems today!
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): a wide range of poets!
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): very
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): Indeed!
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't recite any poem by Einstein after all
Zoe Foodiboo: aw
Klaus Bereznyak: Oh I shall have to keep looking
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): that would have been very interesting
Klaus Bereznyak: Or write one posthumously on his behalf!
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): not that I didn't like the one you recited
Pauline Clary: Yes, very interesting indeed
Pauline Clary: I will ask him
Klaus Bereznyak: Sorry to get your hopes up - the only on by Einstein that I found didn't seem to do him justice
Klaus Bereznyak: Yes please do, Pauline!
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): Do you know him?
Pauline Clary: I work at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute, so I see him form time to time
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): oh!
Zoe Foodiboo: ohhh
Klaus Bereznyak: Oh, wow!
Klaus Bereznyak: Raid his waste paper bin if you get the chance - htere may be a poem or two in there!
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): /me nods!
Zoe Foodiboo: haha
Zoe Foodiboo: Welcome, Herr Kondor
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): needle in a haystack
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): welcome!
Steadman Kondor: hallo, pardon i'm blind.
Florian Blaisdale: Look who just got here - Hallo, Steadman!
Zoe Foodiboo: Ah, okay
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, let's see....I'll share Alas's first
Pauline Clary: Hallo Steadman
Steadman Kondor: hallo :)
Klaus Bereznyak: Hallo Steadman
Zoe Foodiboo: She found a poem in German and then translated it with the help of a friend....I think that's what she told me.
Zoe Foodiboo: She didn't have time to send her thoughts though so I'll just read the poem.
Zoe Foodiboo: Let's see....
Zoe Foodiboo: ummmm...hmmm, no title.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me flips the paper over
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, it's by Emmy Hennings
Zoe Foodiboo: Here's the German first:
Zoe Foodiboo: Ich bin so vielfach in den Nächten.
Ich steige aus den dunklen Schächten.
Wie bunt entfaltet sich mein Anderssein.
So selbstverloren in dem Grunde,
Nachtwache ich, bin Traumesrunde
Und Wunder aus dem Heiligenschrein.
Und öffnen sich mir alle Pforten,
Bin ich nicht da, bin ich nicht dorten?
Bin ich entstiegen einem Märchenbuch?
Vielleicht geht ein Gedicht in ferne Weiten.
Vielleicht verwehen meine Vielfachheiten,
Ein einsam flatternd, blasses Fahnentuch . . .
Zoe Foodiboo: /me is visibly impressed by her own pronunciation and preens
Florian Blaisdale: by Emmy Hennings
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): /me is also impressed by Zoe's German.
Florian Blaisdale: Me too!
Zoe Foodiboo: /me clears her throat and continues reading
Zoe Foodiboo: Here is the English translation…
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): is that needed?
Zoe Foodiboo: I am so often in the nights.
I climb out of the dark shafts.
Zoe Foodiboo: How colorfully my otherness unfolds.
So deeply lost in the depths,
Zoe Foodiboo: I am the nightwatch on the dream sphere,
a miracle of the sacred shrine.
Zoe Foodiboo: When all the gates are opened,
Am I not here, am I not yonder?
Zoe Foodiboo: Am I descended from a fairy tale?
Perhaps a poem come to distant domains.
Zoe Foodiboo: Perhaps blow away my multiplicities,
A solitary fluttering pale bunting…
Zoe Foodiboo: END
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): /me smiles and applauds
Zoe Foodiboo: /me looks up from reading
Florian Blaisdale: Nice!
Steadman Kondor: /me claps
Klaus Bereznyak: Well read!
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): /me claps too
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, that was a good choice, wasn't it....
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): Yes! Wow, she translated that?
Pauline Clary: /me claps
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): pretty darn good
Zoe Foodiboo: I think that's what she said?
Steadman Kondor: it's similar to my google translate
Florian Blaisdale: Yes, a good translation
Klaus Bereznyak: " Am I descended from a fairy tale?" a question we could all very well ask!
Zoe Foodiboo: With the help of an RL friend
Steadman Kondor: it is good fun to put it through the google translate then smooth over
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): /me looks up and waves at Gustav
Zoe Foodiboo: oh hello Herr Gustav!
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): oh, that's a good idea
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me quietly sits
Zoe Foodiboo: Welcome
Florian Blaisdale: Hallo, Gustav!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): hello *waves*
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): welcome Gustav!
Pauline Clary: Hallo Gustav!
Zoe Foodiboo: I have one more poem to read but you can go first if you brought one, Herr Gustav
Steadman Kondor: the Multiplicities got to me
Steadman Kondor: i wonder if there is a older meaning
Steadman Kondor: it has a lot of modern (post modern) connoctation to me
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Oh, no, I haven't, Zoe.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Please continue.
Zoe Foodiboo: Okay
Klaus Bereznyak: /me ponders the multiplicities
Zoe Foodiboo: Herr Blaisdale, what do you think about that translation of multiplicities?
Galina Eiffel (natbun Resident): So sorry, I have to go now, thank you for the beautiful poems
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): Oh, bye, Galina!
Zoe Foodiboo: bye Galina
Florian Blaisdale: multiplicities? Vielfaeltigkeiten?
Steadman Kondor: /me smiles and turns to herr florian
Steadman Kondor: ja
Florian Blaisdale: Sorry, was a way for a moment
Zoe Foodiboo: that's the correct translation?
Pauline Clary: Ciao, Galina
Florian Blaisdale: it is the translation for intricacies
Zoe Foodiboo: ah, I see
Steadman Kondor: oh that is good
Klaus Bereznyak: Seemingly there's no direct equivalence in English?
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods
Zoe Foodiboo: That's the challenge in translation
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): especially when poetry is about the exact right word choice
Klaus Bereznyak: I have a better impression of the word now though, thank you Florian and Steadman
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods
Zoe Foodiboo: Great!
Zoe Foodiboo: Okay, last poem?
Florian Blaisdale: Vielzahl seems to also be the German equivalent, but that could mean bounty, surfeit, etc.
Zoe Foodiboo: Abi wrote some notes too
Steadman Kondor: herr abi translated?
Zoe Foodiboo: /me unfolds a piece of paper and reads on behalf of Abi…
Zoe Foodiboo: Oh, I'm not sure? He is taking German classes and he does have Duncan to help him
Zoe Foodiboo: okay, here goes
Zoe Foodiboo: "I've chosen a poem by Henriette Hardenberg.
Zoe Foodiboo: That's actually her pseudonym; she was born in 1894 as Margarete Rosenberg. Henriette Hardenberg is a name she started using in 1913.
Steadman Kondor: (i love the different female poets we are sharing!)
Zoe Foodiboo: I chose her for several reasons: she was a Berliner - at least for the first 25 years of her life or so. After Berlin she moved to Munich, and then to London. She was an expressionist poet who wrote some of her best works in the 1920s and 30s.
Zoe Foodiboo: She was a friend of Rilke's, and had a lot of friends in artistic circles of the time.
Zoe Foodiboo: Coming from a Jewish family, she fled from Germany to England in 1937, and about 10 years later she became a British citizen.
Zoe Foodiboo: Although she stayed in Britain until her death, she kept writing in German.
Zoe Foodiboo: She lived quite long. When she died in 1993 at the age of 99, Die Zeit newspaper called her “the last Expressionist poet”. Sure, by 1993 all the others were long dead.
Pauline Clary: wow
Zoe Foodiboo: Some of her works, especially from the time of the WW1 deal explicitly with the war; they are quite dark, as can be expected.
Zoe Foodiboo: But this one is called Southern Heart (Südliches Herz), which is also the name of one of her best known collections of poems.
Zoe Foodiboo: Here it goes…
Zoe Foodiboo: Blossom deep down,
mountain tops swaying,
wind stretched out in rest,
the tree stands frozen.
Then suddenly a flowering,
and in my heart's center
you burn in me, tree.
Nowhere is there rest in me,
I cry out in flames,
a sea swelling in all things.
Then they too - blossom and
tree - twitch, having already
reddened with sweetness.
Steadman Kondor: /me blushes. Sorry it seems very phallic to me@
Zoe Foodiboo: That's the end of the poem. Then Abi goes on to say....
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): oh i hadn't even thought of that!
Zoe Foodiboo: "I'll admit that when I first read it, I just thought it was a sort of nature poem. And I guess it can be that, but it's also about passion, which occurred to me later. All this symbolism can be seen as an image of ecstasy.
Zoe Foodiboo: "
Zoe Foodiboo: /me looks up from the paper in her hand
Steadman Kondor: /me coughs
Zoe Foodiboo: And that's all he had to say!
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): It does seem quite erotic. It reminds me of a similar poem by Henrikas Radauskas
Zoe Foodiboo: /me blushes faintly
Steadman Kondor: nods. very energetic and vigorous ecstacy... images
Pauline Clary: /me giggles
Florian Blaisdale: ,,, reddened in sweetness
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): wow
Steadman Kondor: twitch!
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): haha!
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): seems obvious now
Zoe Foodiboo: oh my
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): /me fans self
Klaus Bereznyak: You read it so well, Zoe - didn't falter at all
Steadman Kondor: yes, she doesn't have a dirty mind like some of us
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): haha!
Zoe Foodiboo: /me leans toward Scout, "We'll have to reread this at the next ladies meeting!"
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): /me laughs
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): /me nods seriously
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): Zoe is a very proper lady
Steadman Kondor: for me this is a clincher, "nowhere is there rest in me!"
Zoe Foodiboo: /me flutters her lashes innocently
Steadman Kondor: one imagines her flailing and flapping about in the throes of emotion
Zoe Foodiboo: Herr Kondor! Really!
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): I'm imagining no such thing!
Steadman Kondor: /me murmurs, "i respond sensitively to poetry"
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): haha
Zoe Foodiboo: /me tsks at Herr Kondor
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, on that note....thank you all for sharing your wonderful finds! I really enjoyed each and every poem.
The following is a chat log from our April 9th bookclub event. Photo credit: Klaus Bereznyak
__________
Zoe Foodiboo: Did I say welcome? Welcome!
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): /me smiles
Zoe Foodiboo: Today, our discussion will be focused on poetry.
Zoe Foodiboo: written by yourself or someone else
Zoe Foodiboo: but focused on the 20s or Berlin or both
Zoe Foodiboo: /me grins
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): /me gets comfy
Zoe Foodiboo: I thought we could share our poem (in local chat), then maybe share why you chose the poem, then everyone can comment on it and move to the next poem, etc.
Zoe Foodiboo: Sound good?
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): /me nods
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): nods
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me sips her wine. "Mhm!"
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): yes
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): i've got two, but i can cut one out
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): you can use mine... I wasn't aware of this ... so I don't have one
Zoe Foodiboo: well...let's go around once and then if we have more time we can go around again?
Zoe Foodiboo: And yes, please don't worry if you don't have a poem. :)
Otto Vanderstein (OttoVanderstein Resident): (how do one take a snpashot o firestorm?
Zoe Foodiboo: So, who would like to go first?
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): not all at the same time !! ;)
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, I can go first to break the ice!
Zoe Foodiboo: /me giggles
Steadman Kondor: danke frl zoe :)
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): (Hallo, Steadman!)
Zoe Foodiboo: Hello Steadman
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): Hello Steadman
Otto Vanderstein (OttoVanderstein Resident): Guten abend steadman
Zoe Foodiboo: I chose a poem written by Rainer Maria Rilke
Zoe Foodiboo: This particular version was translated by Albert Ernst Flemming
Zoe Foodiboo: It's called "At Sundown"
Zoe Foodiboo: /me clears her throat
Zoe Foodiboo: Slowly the evening starts to change her raiments
for veils held up by rows of distant trees.
Zoe Foodiboo: "You watch how gradually the landscape's contours change,
some rising heavenward as others downward fall;"
Zoe Foodiboo: "leaving you alone, to neither quite belonging,
nor quite as dark as houses silent keep,"
Zoe Foodiboo: "nor quite so sure beseeching the eternal
as that which nightly turns to star and rises ---"
Zoe Foodiboo: "and leaving you (impossible to disentangle)
your life, fearful, gigantic and still ripening, "
Zoe Foodiboo: which, now limited, now comprehending,
alternatingly becomes stone in you and star.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me looks up and smiles, "The End."
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me claps. "Wonderful, Zoe!"
AlasAndAlack: /me claps in response.
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): Lovely (claps quietly)
Zoe Foodiboo: I chose this poem because it reminded me of all the quiet evenings I spent sitting by the river in the Tiergarten - when I lived in the Tiergarten…
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): /me claps
Steadman Kondor: a thrilling poem, what an end!
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): clap clap clap
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): beautiful
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me feels her lower lip quiver at "when I lived in the Tiergarten..."
Zoe Foodiboo: I'd watch the sky change - either because the sim was changing or because I was playing with windlights
Zoe Foodiboo: …
Zoe Foodiboo: and that time of day, between light and darkness…
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me dabs her eyes with the corner of her sleeve.
Zoe Foodiboo: always makes me think of the inbetweenness in our lives and the balance that we often try to achieve…
Otto Vanderstein (OttoVanderstein Resident): /me ( me winders what he is ment to be doing but isnt because he is lazy)
Zoe Foodiboo: RL berlin vs SL berlin…
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): *sighs* it's beautiful
Zoe Foodiboo: Zoe in SL vs Zoe in RL…
Otto Vanderstein (OttoVanderstein Resident): (sl berlin)
Zoe Foodiboo: that sort of thing...does that make sense?
Zoe Foodiboo: What do you think about the poem?
Steadman Kondor: you add shades of your own meaning to it of course, and that's part of the reading process
Otto Vanderstein (OttoVanderstein Resident): It was gute
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods at Steadman
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): exactly…
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): it really externalizes the internal
Steadman Kondor: it's someone at a difficult place in time
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): I was especially struck by, ""and leaving you (impossible to disentangle) / your life, fearful, gigantic and still ripening,"
Steadman Kondor: alone and yet full of potential
Zoe Foodiboo: /me hands out notecards with the poem typed on it
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): (nods)
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): oh thank you
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): thank you!
Zoe Foodiboo: Anyway...that's my poem.
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): whispers: words are words words
Zoe Foodiboo: /me smiles shyly
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): much obliged
Zoe Foodiboo: Eloise? Did you bring a poem?
Zoe Foodiboo: Want to go next?
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): I sure did!
Zoe Foodiboo: And then we can just go around in circle..
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me shuffles some papers and pouts. "You know, I WAS going to read my own poem, about flowers, but my mean, nasty governess, Gerda, tore it up and threw it in the fire, calling it "too bourgeois."
Zoe Foodiboo: /me blinks at Eloise
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): So instead, I'd like to share something by Mr. Schiltzen's favorite poet, W. B. Yeats, called "Broken Dreams," published as part of his collection, "The Wild Swans at Coole." A few historical notes about this particular piece.
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): That Gerda sure is something…
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): The poem was originally published in 1917 (so persumably available and read in the 20s), just one year after Yeats' final proposal to Maud Gonne, the love of his youth (and some might say, of his entire life). He was 52 years old at the time.
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): /me cocks her her to one side
Zoe Foodiboo: whispers: oh nice
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): Yeats had proposed to Maud on several occasions, and on each one, she rebuffed him. Instead, she married a man named John MacBride, from whom she was later estranged. By the time Yeats wrote "Broken Dreams," he had already been executed for his part in the Easter 1916 rising.
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): so sad
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): Without saying too much more, there are many timeless themes in this poem: beauty, age, love ... all squished into a truly powerful poem of just five stanzas. I think it would be fun to have an entire Book Club event discussing just this one piece! But that, perhaps for another day.
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): So, here it is!
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): guten abend Klaus
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): There is grey in your hair.
Young men no longer suddenly catch their breath
When you are passing;
But maybe some old gaffer mutters a blessing
Because it was your prayer
Recovered him upon the bed of death.
For your sole sake—that all heart’s ache have known,
And given to others all heart’s ache,
From meagre girlhood’s putting on
Burdensome beauty—for your sole sake
Heaven has put away the stroke of her doom,
So great her portion in that peace you make
By merely walking in a room.
Zoe Foodiboo: whispers: There's a chair for you there, Klaus
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): Your beauty can but leave among us
Vague memories, nothing but memories.
A young man when the old men are done talking
Will say to an old man, 'Tell me of that lady
The poet stubborn with his passion sang us
When age might well have chilled his blood.'
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): Vague memories, nothing but memories,
But in the grave all, all, shall be renewed.
The certainty that I shall see that lady
Leaning or standing or walking
In the first loveliness of womanhood,
And with the fervour of my youthful eyes,
Has set me muttering like a fool.
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): You are more beautiful than any one,
And yet your body had a flaw:
Your small hands were not beautiful,
And I am afraid that you will run
And paddle to the wrist
In that mysterious, always brimming lake
Where those that have obeyed the holy law
Paddle and are perfect; leave unchanged
The hands that I have kissed
For old sake’s sake.
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): The last stroke of midnight dies.
All day in the one chair
From dream to dream and rhyme to rhyme I have ranged
In rambling talk with an image of air:
Vague memories, nothing but memories.
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): ~ The End ~
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): *clap clap clap*
Zoe Foodiboo: /me applauds softly
Steadman Kondor: /me smiles and claps.
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): (claps)
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): /me claps
Otto Vanderstein (OttoVanderstein Resident): /me claps
Zoe Foodiboo: Thank you for sharing, Elo!
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me looks snooty, "My original about flowers was better!"
Zoe Foodiboo: /me grins
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): sighs
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): /me chuckles
Zoe Foodiboo: So what made you choose this poem?
AlasAndAlack: /me applauds. "Such a beautiful piece. Sigh!"
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): /me crinkles her paper nervously
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): I suppose what made me select this one was, Yeats was (to me) a bit of an idealist, a Platonist, but one who had to face the decidedly different reality of our temporal, changing, and mightily imperfect actual existence.
Zoe Foodiboo: ((If anyone takes photos, can you send them to me later? Everyone's hair isn't rezzing for me for some reason))
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): (nods)
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): So when he speaks of the ideals of Love, of Beauty ... and then his ability (or inability) to deal with these things, just ... WOW! ... well, it very much appeals to me. :)
Steadman Kondor: it's not wholly flattering to the muse... but that's part of the poems audacity
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): /me takes out his comb and fixes his hair a bit
Zoe Foodiboo: /me smiles at Eloise
Otto Vanderstein (OttoVanderstein Resident): (my hair is painted on)
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): interesting that stanza with the lake-- am I reading right that he sounds a little critical of her? Is sounds like he's saying she dog paddles in a little lake where those who obey the holy law stay perfect. Sounds like sour grapes.
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): ah
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): I found it so modern .... precisely for that reason herr Kondor…
Otto Vanderstein (OttoVanderstein Resident): /me cough for a about a minute
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): (He was very bitter about losing Maud, yes, and jealous of her ex-husband for having "won" her in ways he never could or did. But depending on how you read it, and perhaps your own feelings relating to the poem, one could say he always loved her ... in some ways, more than ever, despite her aging and the lost beauty of her youth--and the beauty of youth was always something that somewhat tortured Yeats. He greatly idealized it, even in this poem.)
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me smiles and sips her wine so others can share now. :)
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): How SL of him.
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): ((Yes, exactly, William! Another reason why I shared this one. :) ))
Zoe Foodiboo: Thank you for sharing, Eloise.
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): Yes, thanks so much.
Zoe Foodiboo: Shall we move along the circle?
Zoe Foodiboo: Steadman? Did you bring anything?
Zoe Foodiboo: It's okay if you didn't...
Steadman Kondor: i brought some short ones
Steadman Kondor: it was tricky to get the right translations of german poets!
Zoe Foodiboo: Great! Would you like to share one?
Steadman Kondor: but a joy discovering new ones
Steadman Kondor: /me looks through his notes for the blue piano
Zoe Foodiboo: We're going to go around the circle and share one, then share more if there's time
Steadman Kondor: My Blue Piano - by Else Lasker-Schüler
Steadman Kondor: At home I have a blue piano
but cannot play a single note.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods and smiles at Steadman
Steadman Kondor: It stands in the dark of the cellar door
since the world went savage.
Steadman Kondor: "Four starry hands play,"
Moon Woman sang in her boat.
Steadman Kondor: Now rats dance in a clatter.
Steadman Kondor: The keyboard is shattered.
I weep over the dead blue thing.
Steadman Kondor: Dearest Angel, I have eaten
such bitter bread. Please open
Steadman Kondor: for me while still alive— even though
it is forbidden—Heaven’s door.
Zoe Foodiboo: whispers: wb Ruuchan
Steadman Kondor: ~ end
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): oh!
Zoe Foodiboo: /me applauds softly
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): Interesting!
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): makes me cold inside …
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): /me claps
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): wow
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): *claps*
AlasAndAlack: /me applauds.
Otto Vanderstein (OttoVanderstein Resident): /me clap and smoke pipe
Steadman Kondor: It's hard to say why i chose it but i'll try.
Zoe Foodiboo: whispers: I think Frau Jo would've liked that one.
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): sits up to better listen …
Steadman Kondor: the clear startling images. the image of broken creativity (the piano) is something that touches my heart
Steadman Kondor: and a hint of the war before and the war to come
Zoe Foodiboo: ahhh
Steadman Kondor: AND the rats dancing, lol
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): haha
Zoe Foodiboo: /me wrinkles her nose
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): of course :p
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): /me nods - very postwar
Zoe Foodiboo: Like at Der Keller
Steadman Kondor: yes i'm sure quite a few broken keys there
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): There are RATS at Der Keller?! (shivers)
Zoe Foodiboo: ...and rats!
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): haha
Otto Vanderstein (OttoVanderstein Resident): and sailors
Zoe Foodiboo: /me remembers herself and smiles politely
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): Well I found it compelling and a little sad.
Steadman Kondor: when i try to play moonlight sonata, it comes out like jazz, because the broken keys makes me feel you are listening to syncopated music
Steadman Kondor: danke all
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): oh wow
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): I love the appeal to an angel to do something not allowed, the sheer yearning of it is really effective.
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): To me, it seems, it touched on a mourning over untapped potential. Talent unpursued.
Steadman Kondor: nods. yes that could be too.
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): A sort of "if only I had" thing.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): Yes Herr William, to me too
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): Perhaps rats are a metaphor for regrets.
Steadman Kondor: It can also be talent interrupted. The potential and talent is there , but circumstances can take the stage away from the actor, or the piano from the musician
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): Good point.
Steadman Kondor: or the focus from the writer
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): I have a guitar, but no strings. I have a clarinet, but no reed. Etc.
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): How melancholy that could make me.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods
Zoe Foodiboo: well, thank you Herr Kondor - excellent choice!
Zoe Foodiboo: Teruumi?
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): Indeed. Bravo.
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): brilliant
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): /me nods
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me claps softly. :)
Zoe Foodiboo: Is she there? It think she's a little crashy today…
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): /me clears her throat, "I also brought a poem. Called Arrow In The Sky by Henrikas Radauskas"
Zoe Foodiboo: oh good
Zoe Foodiboo: /me smiles
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): I am an arrow that a child shot through
An apple tree in bloom beside the sea;
A cloud of apple blossoms, like a swan,
Has shimmered down and landed on a wave;
The child is wondering, he cannot tell
The blossoms from the foam.
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): I am an arrow that a hunter shot
To hit an eagle that was flying by;
For all his strength and youth, he missed the bird,
Wounding instead the old enormous sun
And flooding all the twilight with its blood;
And now the day has died.
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): I am an arrow that was shot at night
By a crazed soldier from a fort besieged
To plead for help from mighty heaven, but
Not having spotted God, the arrow still
Wanders among the frigid constellations,
Not daring to return.
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): - The End -
Steadman Kondor: /me applauds
Zoe Foodiboo: /me smiles and applauds
Klaus Bereznyak: Brilliant!
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): I love this one
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me smiles and claps!
Steadman Kondor: This arrow quite has a life of its own!
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): *clap clap clap *
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): haha
Zoe Foodiboo: Ah, Herr von Stroheim
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): *smiles*
Otto Vanderstein (OttoVanderstein Resident): good
Zoe Foodiboo: Please, take my seat.
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): indeed
AlasAndAlack: /me claps. Quite a poem for the world suffering after the war.
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): yes!
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): Indeed !
Zoe Foodiboo: /me plops on the floor
Klaus Bereznyak: /me sees an opportunity to delay his turn and slips across to Zoe's vacant seat
Steadman Kondor: what a marvellous turnout today. I'm so glad poetry touches the hearts of so many of us
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): So the reason why I chose this particular poem is because I like how instead of depicting the arrows flight as something grand and amazing, Radauskas depicts it as more of an Icarus flight
Zoe Foodiboo: /me chuckles at Klaus
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): that's what poetry is supposed to do Herr Kondor ;)
Erich von Stroheim (erichvonstroheim Resident): /me gulps, only realising now what he's walked into
Zoe Foodiboo: We're happy to have you, Herr von Stroheim. Please join us and listen. :)
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): I like, also, how it has an almost sentient quality, especially at the end when it doesn't "dare" to return, fearful to disappoint, I assume, in not having found God.
Steadman Kondor: and now you're trapped!
Steadman Kondor: with no bier!
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): ...and having killed the sun
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): it's a very playfull poem…
Steadman Kondor: yes the arrow is like an extension of the poet's desires
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): yes, I agree!
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): It does indeed bear resemblance to some of the more playful Ancient Greek mythology.
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): The folly of the gods and mortals alike.
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): I don't know anything about this poet, but I was reading it like he was a soldier who was sent to war-- a beautiful romantic image of it-- but then it wasn't.
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): doesn't it make you wonder where your arrows would fly to?? Lol
Steadman Kondor: it's like the three stages of Man - innocence, experience... Desperation
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): (nods)
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): yes
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): (Oh, marvelous point!)
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): yes!
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): That's so sad ... I don't think the the third has to be desperation at all…
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): whispers: three stages of woman
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): whispers: nah, there's gotta be at least nine
Zoe Foodiboo: /me raises her hand
Steadman Kondor: /me grins at Fraulein T
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): May I help you up?
Zoe Foodiboo: Oh no, I couldn't tell if anyone was typing.
Steadman Kondor: Let's all throw cushions at Frl Zoe
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): /me looks at Zoe, expectant
Zoe Foodiboo: I see that it's almost time for El D but I know several more people prepared poems for today. Would you like to meet again? Maybe next weekend?
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): Sure!
Steadman Kondor: oh that would be great! i'm up for it
Herr William Thomson (KelvinD Kramer): Yes, please.
Zoe Foodiboo: I really hadn't expected so many people to show up - it's nice!
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): Absolutely!
Zoe Foodiboo: Okay, let's say same time, same place.
Eloise Schiltzen (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): Certainly!
Steadman Kondor: it's quite fun reading on the spot, with no homework, lol
Scout MacLeod (Maplekey Resident): Sounds great!
Steadman Kondor: except bringing your own
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): don't think I can make it next weekend but, I'll definitely come again!
Zoe Foodiboo: Oh, well then I'll use your chair, Frl Mosienko. Lol
Tiffany Mosienko (Ti Mosienko): I've come up with some automatic writing, a new style
Zoe Foodiboo: I send out notices and create an FB event.
Miss Mind Myhead (CeliaP Resident): I won't be able next week but count on me in 2 weeks time
Zoe Foodiboo: It's really very fitting as it's poetry month this month
Zoe Foodiboo: Or at least in America it is…
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): YAY \☺/
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, thank you to everyone who shared today!
**Berlin: City of Smoke by Jason Lutes**
Zoe Foodiboo: Web, wanna tell us what the book was about?
bibiche Chant: hallo dear
Zoe Foodiboo: Hi Bibi
Zoe Foodiboo: Hi Lauren
Zoe Foodiboo: wb Augusta
webspelunker Ghostraven: Sure!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Hello Bibi!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): WB Augusta :))
Lauren Keiyrti: Helo, Zoe :)
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): Hello Augusta
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Hallo wieder alle
bibiche Chant: hallo!!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Today, we're doing Book II of Berlin: City of smoke
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
Maddie (MaddieGraceGearz Resident): Will this be in voice or text?
webspelunker Ghostraven: A graphic novel set in Berlin after the blutmai riots...
Zoe Foodiboo: text
Maddie (MaddieGraceGearz Resident): Thank you
webspelunker Ghostraven: Has everyone either read or know of the book?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): in 1929
Zoe Foodiboo: I reread it this morning.
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): i read it
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): yes
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): yes
webspelunker Ghostraven: Excellent!
Panny (Panny Bakerly): I read it a while ago.
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): I've heard about it, but haven't had the possibilty to read it yet
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): i have read the first book just started the second;)
Zoe Foodiboo: Perfect timing - it covered the year after Blutmai
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
Maddie (MaddieGraceGearz Resident): I have them both on order but they haven't arrived yet.
webspelunker Ghostraven: I found the stark B&W pictures and the light use of text very powerful..
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): yes i agree web
webspelunker Ghostraven: You'll enjoy them Maddie!
Zoe Foodiboo: ((we can have another discussion in a few weeks once you've read them Emily & Maddie))
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I agree Web
webspelunker Ghostraven: We can!
Zoe Foodiboo: You really see what life was like for real people in Berlin.
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): ((okies ty Zoe))
Patrice Cournoyer: hello all!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I felt it was slower paced than the first
Maddie (MaddieGraceGearz Resident): Thank you
Zoe Foodiboo: So many people struggling. No food at all.
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): Guten Abend!
webspelunker Ghostraven: I find with graphic novels I spend more time with the scene than the story...
Zoe Foodiboo: Hi Patty
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I never thought I would enjoy a graphic novel to be honest
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): yes it would have been a huge inspiration to me when building berlin if I had read it before I build the sim :)
Panny (Panny Bakerly): This is the first graphic novel for me.
webspelunker Ghostraven: I do regret Book III has not been written yet...
Zoe Foodiboo: I could see our Berlin sim in the pictures of the book though. Both reflect the time quite accurately, yeah?
webspelunker Ghostraven: I was reminded of 1920's Berlin as I read it...
Patrice Cournoyer: I am hoping for Book III but I think its taking him a long time
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): the book made me feel really stupid because I kept thinking; "Oh yes I experienced that as well" because ive seen it in sl
webspelunker Ghostraven: Maybe Lutes visited first!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): yes they did Zoe
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): so there will be a book 3?
webspelunker Ghostraven: No one knows.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I hope so
Zoe Foodiboo: I would be surprised if he hadn't.
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): /me nods
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): ha i did see some people in the book who reminded me of SL'ers
webspelunker Ghostraven: I've checked the author's website, he's doing other projects.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): it could be City of Steel
Zoe Foodiboo: Marthe, the woman from the wealthy family kinda reminded me of Augusta
webspelunker Ghostraven: Well, SL is a form of a graphic novel...
webspelunker Ghostraven: Oh,?
bibiche Chant: me/waves to patrice
Patrice Cournoyer: hiya Bibi
webspelunker Ghostraven: Augusta what do you have to say for yourself?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): /me smiles
bibiche Chant: /me waves to patrice
Panny (Panny Bakerly): Augusta is a bit more fancier than Marthe
Zoe Foodiboo: Someone from a wealthy family who moved to Berlin and is discovering all the city has to offer.
Maddie (MaddieGraceGearz Resident): /me smiles to the lady next to her
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): looks at Augusta in a whole new way
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): That would be Augusta....
webspelunker Ghostraven: Does anyone else see themselves in the book?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): It was quite interesting. Book I is focused on lower class life. II is showing more upper class life in Berlin.
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, not the s-e-x part....just the experience of being in a metropolis and having a shift in perspective.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): ohyes, of course!
Zoe Foodiboo: /me grins
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I thought it had two distinct classes
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): (( I didn't get that far this time! ))
Patrice Cournoyer: I like the woman who ends up with the Jazz man
webspelunker Ghostraven: I thought so too, Sara.
Zoe Foodiboo: Two distinct classes?
Zoe Foodiboo: Not more?
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): ohh i have some reading to catch up on!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): there were the workers....downtrodden ...hungry
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Oh is he like Herr Boberg?
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods
Panny (Panny Bakerly): The one that left in the end, Patrice?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): and the socialites
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): clubbing...petting parties
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): drugs
webspelunker Ghostraven: The artist caught that very well I thought..
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): S-E-X
Zoe Foodiboo: petting parties!
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): (( i'm ordering both stones and smoke now, i have to read them :) ))
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): hehe zoe
Zoe Foodiboo: /me leans and covers the little girl's ears
webspelunker Ghostraven: The petty acts of cruelty...
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I heard Frau Jo was hosting one of those next month
webspelunker Ghostraven: The police with the small boy...
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): (( you will enjoy them! ))
Zoe Foodiboo: lol
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): oi
Panny (Panny Bakerly): /me giggles
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): but it could be rumor
Zoe Foodiboo: watch out, you're within slapping range
Panny (Panny Bakerly): Maybe it's her twin
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): yikes...I forgot !
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): when I organise a petting party, I mean the kind of petting that gets you ended up in the hospital with a black eye
Zoe Foodiboo: It was heartbreaking, what happened to Gundrun's daughter
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): laughs
Zoe Foodiboo: what was her name again?
Zoe Foodiboo: Sylvia?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): it was
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Sylvia
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): gosh im still getting over what happened to gundrun:(
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): but I kind of thought it would be that way all along
Zoe Foodiboo: you could see what an orphan's life is truly like
webspelunker Ghostraven: Did anyone feel the inevitability of the story?
webspelunker Ghostraven: Especially with the centennial of the start of WWI this week?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): why yes Web...I did :)
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Today actually...
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): yep me to web;)
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): but I was surprised at how Marthe fell for Anna
webspelunker Ghostraven: Even though I know how it ends...
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, you could really see the impact of the Great War
webspelunker Ghostraven: I kept saying "Get out, get out!"
webspelunker Ghostraven: Why Sara?
webspelunker Ghostraven: Given the times and the turmoil?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): because there was no interest until the party
Zoe Foodiboo: And I could understand why that older couple decided to vote for the National Socialists
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): and I had hoped that Marthe had more to go on than great sex
Zoe Foodiboo: Sara!
Zoe Foodiboo: s-e-x!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): reaching back towards the familiar, Zoe?
Patrice Cournoyer: did you read the first book Sara?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): ooops!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): S-E-X
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): yes Patrice
Panny (Panny Bakerly): /me giggles
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): Marthe had a relationship yes
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, Augusta. Longing for stability, order.
Zoe Foodiboo: Familiarity.
Patrice Cournoyer: I thought the attraction was there then
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): did oyu?
webspelunker Ghostraven: Did the characters seem real?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I didn't see it...but maybe
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): i dont just pretend to be old fashioned and a prude, I am one, so I also understood how the more conservative people were very uncomfortable with the wild side of the weimar republic
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): yes the characters all felt real to me
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): and isn't that what makes a good book?..when you feel the characters?
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): it is
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): when you feel you are part of the story
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, Frau Jo, I too see that but looking back from today, I see how that was a mistake, a big one!
Zoe Foodiboo: I'm not old fashioned but the gap between the socialites and the rest of characters was appalling.
webspelunker Ghostraven: But that's reality..
webspelunker Ghostraven: That's why we have the KPD!
webspelunker Ghostraven: And Marx!
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): yeah its kind of discusting to see the ddecadence and fun while people starve
Zoe Foodiboo: they were a bunch of thugs
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): yes
Zoe Foodiboo: and disorganized
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): and I think that was the larger story
webspelunker Ghostraven: Sara's right...
Panny (Panny Bakerly): I thought it was kind of neat that the band members got theirs.
Panny (Panny Bakerly): A little justice
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): how things liek that set Germany up for it's politics
webspelunker Ghostraven: Uncle Joe and the Comintern had a lot to answer for.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): neither extreme worked
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): (Perhaps worth pointing out that we're heading in the wrong direction these days, with the wealth gap between the top and the bottom the largest it's been since, I believe, the late 1920s.)
webspelunker Ghostraven: Agreed.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods
webspelunker Ghostraven: Bingo Eloise!
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): and we never learn from history or from our previous mistakes
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): that is what makes us humans
webspelunker Ghostraven: The victims learn!
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): the problem is always that people are frustrated, unhappy and sometimes a party offers them a easy fix that ALWAYS turns out to be the opposite of easy
Panny (Panny Bakerly): we repeat history
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): the problem is that people think history is irrelevant to their lives
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): that is why you should never vote for a party that just protests
Zoe Foodiboo: never an easy fix
webspelunker Ghostraven: AvN's right (as usual)
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, Augusta
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): unless I one day start a party, then you should vote for my easy fix
Zoe Foodiboo: I think social media in some ways makes people think even less about history, etc.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes, that's true, Jo.
Panny (Panny Bakerly): Yes Zoe
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): people share pictures an stories without even checking if they are true
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): they do
Panny (Panny Bakerly): They don't know how to check, Jo.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Do they even care!
Zoe Foodiboo: Everyone is so focused on themselves, it breaks down community. Not in our case, of course.
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): in the UK some far right party posts pictures of sad puppies who have been abandoned and everyone shares them not realising they are spreading the right wing politics as well
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): and everyone is outraged over false stories while the big true ones pass by unseen
Zoe Foodiboo: /me true
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): I agree, Zoe, and to think even less about what the advertisers see as having little or no value--that is, those without money to spend.
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): agreed...so it was easy for me to see how the rhetoric in the book took shape
Zoe Foodiboo: yes, Sara
webspelunker Ghostraven: The attention span is shortening...
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): and also.....the characters were recognizable.....but harder for me to keep names to
webspelunker Ghostraven: whispers: The masses want instant gratification!
Panny (Panny Bakerly): There isn't any, Web
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes, actually, me, too, Sara :)
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): is online.
Panny (Panny Bakerly): People are too busy playing with their mobile devices
webspelunker Ghostraven: Are they Everyman?
Zoe Foodiboo: The characters in the book made me want to create an alt....there were so many different storylines in the book.
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): people today are more educated but also more individualistic and less idealistic
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): yes the people are so interesting
Zoe Foodiboo: That's very true, Frau Jo.
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): (Very well put, Frau Jo.)
Panny (Panny Bakerly): I don't know if I completely agree with that, Jo
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): well people want what tehy want...and want it now
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, Jo, ideals are dead for this time.
Zoe Foodiboo: like all the homeless, and struggling workers....I'd like to see more of those types in our Berlin.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Instant gratification, Sara!
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): nothing personal but I like those kinds of people more than the pretty ladies and dashing gentlemen we mostly see in SL
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes, agree, Zoe.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Hey, what about me?
Zoe Foodiboo: you're too pretty Web
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Those books showed me what I wanted to know.
Zoe Foodiboo: :P
webspelunker Ghostraven: I'm homeless and unemployed!
Zoe Foodiboo: You don't look homeless
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): you are the fairest of all Web lol
Zoe Foodiboo: and you're not unemployed, you work at the library!
Zoe Foodiboo: Hi Sasa!
webspelunker Ghostraven: I always work at my appearance!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): :))
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I am the one with no job
webspelunker Ghostraven: Marx had to pawn his clothes!
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): Hello folks
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): hallo Sasa !
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): hallo noch wieder
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Hello Sasa
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): Hi Sasa
Zoe Foodiboo: Never mind the fact that I pay you in schnapps
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): Guten Abend!
bibiche Chant: i haven't any job me too
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): Hallo, Sasa. :)
webspelunker Ghostraven: But, I'm a revolutionary!
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me gasps!
Zoe Foodiboo: you're something all right
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): perhaps we start an employment agency Bibi
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): is it a KPD meeting?
webspelunker Ghostraven: (And I do it well enough that I drive Jo crazy!)
Zoe Foodiboo: bookclub, doll.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): no, it is not Sasa
Zoe Foodiboo: have a drink on the library
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): doesn't sound like that
webspelunker Ghostraven: Back to the book!
webspelunker Ghostraven: whispers: I live in the library!
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes Web? You have a question?
webspelunker Ghostraven: ;)
webspelunker Ghostraven: Was anyone surprised by the book?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): no.....but perhaps it's because I do know the history of the time?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): if I had read it not knowing it might have been shocking
Zoe Foodiboo: I think the drawings made the poverty seem more vivid to me
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I'm still surprised that I enjoyed these as graphic novels
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes, me, too, Zoe.
webspelunker Ghostraven: I agree with Zoe...
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): yes that was the same for me Zoe
webspelunker Ghostraven: Sara, that's why we're all here!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): agreed
Zoe Foodiboo: I was surprised at how much the drawings look like our sim.
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): i grew up with graphic novels and comic, so I didnt mind
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): me too, Zoe
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): but yes, it all felt very familiar
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): maybe the artist is an alt
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I wanted to direct where Silvia would run too
Zoe Foodiboo: that's what I think Sasa
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): if the writer had said he has been to our sim, i would not be surprised
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): go left !
Maddie (MaddieGraceGearz Resident): So you think the author really told a true story in both books?
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): am I in them? ;)
Zoe Foodiboo: Poor Silvia....I hope she finds her way to a better life. But probably not, huh?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Hahaha, we talked about it in the previous book club, Joe.
Zoe Foodiboo: There are prossies!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I don't know if it was a "true" story...but historically accurate, yes
Zoe Foodiboo: And a Pola!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): Pola !
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): yes !
Zoe Foodiboo: and an American jazz band. We should get a jazz band.
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I was cheering for her!
webspelunker Ghostraven: i think it was authentic...
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): Good, then i need to get hold of it
Patrice Cournoyer: I am sorry I must leave you
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): bye Patrice
Zoe Foodiboo: there's lots of nudity, sasa
webspelunker Ghostraven: Thanks for coming!
Zoe Foodiboo: and s-e-x
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): bye Patrice :)
Patrice Cournoyer: thanks for the book club Zoe.. I got a couple of snaps
bibiche Chant: bye
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): bye patrrice
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I think we work on authenticity here, and the author did as well
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): even better
Zoe Foodiboo: bye Patty!
Patrice Cournoyer: ((for FB))
Maddie (MaddieGraceGearz Resident): Bye Ms Patrice
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): i am thinking about getting a negro jazz band
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): hallo Nemo
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): tschau Patrice!
Zoe Foodiboo: Hallo Nemo!
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): Take care, Patrice. :)
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): Guten Abend!
Zoe Foodiboo: I think that would be great Frau Jo
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): Auf wiedersehen!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Gute Nacht Patrice
Nemo Nimbus: Goedenavond
webspelunker Ghostraven: I found the nudity and s-e-x tame.
Nemo Nimbus: Gute Nacht
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): why are you spelling it out?
webspelunker Ghostraven: whispers: Zoe has us doing it!
Zoe Foodiboo: /me points to the kid
Nemo Nimbus: Still a g rated sim
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): /me giggles
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): /me shrugs her shoulders
Nemo Nimbus: Take care
webspelunker Ghostraven: Be well!
Zoe Foodiboo: Bye Nemo
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): *waves*
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): Bye, Nemo. :)
Penny (Penny Luckstone): /me smiles back to the lady pointing at her
webspelunker Ghostraven: What was the most important part of this story to you as readers?
Zoe Foodiboo: /me smiles and pats Penny's head
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): that kid is so small, it doesn't understand what we talk about anyway
Zoe Foodiboo: she
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): They understand Sasa
Zoe Foodiboo: /me grins at Sasa
Penny (Penny Luckstone): "it?"...... gnarls her new teeth
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): /me laughs
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): the darkness of the tiem was already seeping into the happier ones
webspelunker Ghostraven: Cool it everyone...
webspelunker Ghostraven: Stay on topic!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): into the socialites
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): one day you'll understand children, sasa
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): there is always this dark cloud over the story, because we know whats coming
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): no one was escaping it
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): nods
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): For me, the entire feeling of the time was bit more important than the story itself.
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): yes...but I found it interesting how it was slowly creeping in
webspelunker Ghostraven: The author does capture the feeling..
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): yes Gustav !
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): that's it !
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): i think people then may have felt it too even without knowing what would come
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I felt bad for the orphan
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): i know I feel it in our sim sometimes
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): is that because we are so fascinated about the era?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): the socialite too
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): makes me even angrier at the nazis, not just what they did, but also what they ended when they came to power
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): it was something that one person could not overcome
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): because...I think in the story...you could feel how they knew it was all coming down
Zoe Foodiboo: That was an interesting relationship, the orphan and the Jewish homeless guy - forgot his name too.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Everyone is living their lives in the book. But we know where and how they'll end up with. That's really hard for me to see....
Panny (Panny Bakerly): I've got to go. Toodles.
webspelunker Ghostraven: How many have these feelings when inworld at Berlin?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Tschau Panny
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): (Bye, Panny.) :)
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): bye Panny
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): bye panny
webspelunker Ghostraven: TC Panny!
Zoe Foodiboo: what feelings?
Zoe Foodiboo: in our Berlin?
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): darkness and foreboding?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): I feel that.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Do you feel history looking over your shoulder?
webspelunker Ghostraven: Double yes!
Zoe Foodiboo: I guess this book made me think about how we can balance our partying with darker stuff
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): It's inevitable for me to feel that.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I feel directed by history when I'm in the sim
webspelunker Ghostraven: We don't do much dark here do we Jo?
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): i feel it in RL and SL
Zoe Foodiboo: I mean, I love our partying obviously.....but it made me wonder how we can rp other stuff
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): its up to the people
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): i have added more and more dark stories to the newspapers when i have the time
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Hahaha, Herr Boberg, yes, actually both in RL and SL.
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): im also going to add a permanent crime scene
Zoe Foodiboo: I like that Bruno lost his fortune
Zoe Foodiboo: that feels real
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): you do??
webspelunker Ghostraven: We have wounded vets lying in the streets?
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): you evil person!
Zoe Foodiboo: I mean, I'm not happy about it!
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): yes such a crybaby
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I do too lol
Zoe Foodiboo: oh you know what I mean, you nuts.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): /me giggles
Zoe Foodiboo: It's a good rp storyline is all
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): it is
Zoe Foodiboo: /me shakes her head
webspelunker Ghostraven: There are street walkers...
Zoe Foodiboo: I'd like to see more of that kind of thing.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Fallen nobility...
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I haven't fallen anywhere.
Zoe Foodiboo: petty crime
webspelunker Ghostraven: The dark side!
Zoe Foodiboo: fighting
webspelunker Ghostraven: Sensitive, aren't we?
Zoe Foodiboo: loss of work, loss of income
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): also when i rebuild the brothel I will make it look a little darker and that whole area
bibiche Chant: goodnight all! it was very interesting
webspelunker Ghostraven: whispers: organized crime!
Zoe Foodiboo: bye bibi!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): night Bibi
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Tschau Bibi!
webspelunker Ghostraven: TY for coming!
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): Night, bibi. :)
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Goodnight, Bibi!
bibiche Chant: see you!
Zoe Foodiboo: See, I think with organized crime, people tend to want to be glamourous about it.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): The organized crime got out of control
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): the criminals we have are very keen, but not organized
Zoe Foodiboo: watching too many mob movies or something
webspelunker Ghostraven: There's a very important business aspect to it!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Al Capone's a good businessman!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): we're Berlin, not Chicago
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): yes, it was an interesting experiment, but it didn't really fit Berlin
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes! That's what I mean, Augusta :)
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): i want the criminals we saw in 'M'
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): the beggars, thieves, thugs
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): child murderers?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): yes
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): we need Mo Galewarden back
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): dirty, evil, but cool
webspelunker Ghostraven: But what about Mr. Big?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Mr. Big?
Zoe Foodiboo: well, proper villians. Not models in suits.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Ah, yes, sorry.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): but we want to get more kids to Berlin -- that will scare them off
webspelunker Ghostraven: The criminal element organizes to fight back!
Zoe Foodiboo: Like Mo. Or Happy. Or Kungler.
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me decides after all this scary talk to build a higher gate around her house!
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): ive tried to get crime started in berlin several times but somehow it never quite worked
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): not really Augusta
webspelunker Ghostraven: Let's talk Jo...
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): its a bit the same with the kids
Zoe Foodiboo: Crime will scare off the kids?
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): they show up but then we need to keep them coming back
webspelunker Ghostraven: whispers: Being a failed revolutionary is getting tiring!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): ther eis no way to break a window in Berlin
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): if you kill children?
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): I am going to work on 'stealable' stuff btw
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): ther eis no one to rob when I'm there
Zoe Foodiboo: oh! no, I don't want to start murdering children.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Break windows?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Oh I had my window on Bruderstrasse broken once
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): but we need anothter kind of crime
webspelunker Ghostraven: I'm talking rackets, extortion, kidnapping...
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): (I'd be happy to help with any roleplay, Frau Jo, I'd even--gasps!--create an alt for crime, if it would be helpful.) :)
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): how about muggings?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): yes !
Maddie (MaddieGraceGearz Resident): Stealing food is good..... I'm always hungry.
Zoe Foodiboo: muggings would be great! I was mugged once.
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): exactly Jo
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): might be a nice way to make a few lindens
Zoe Foodiboo: by Kungler.
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): how do you mug without windows?
Zoe Foodiboo: walking on the street
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I know a girl who tried to steal a chicken in Berlin
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): sorry without WEAPONS
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): or just street fights
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): not windows
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): but couldn't get it out of the window
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): you can use a knife
Zoe Foodiboo: actually, I was sitting in the park with Myf and Kungler held us up
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): or a truncheon!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): brute force Herr Boberg
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): I got the same club the police has
webspelunker Ghostraven: You folks have no idea what crime is all about!
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): i don't look fierce enough for that
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): no, you are far too nice
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): buy a scar ;)
webspelunker Ghostraven: Groan...
Zoe Foodiboo: Lots of crimes motivated by hunger, Web.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): that's why we need Mo back
Zoe Foodiboo: Mo!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, but I'm talking at another level!
Zoe Foodiboo: what level?
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): he is more horny than hungry
Zoe Foodiboo: lol
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): there is also a gambling den in berlin
Zoe Foodiboo: true
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): in the nussbaum backroom
Zoe Foodiboo: but that's part of his schtick
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): sorrry i mean h-o-r-n-y
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): we could gather there do some.... betting ;)
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): laughs
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes, I saw that.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me laughs
webspelunker Ghostraven: I mean multinational, millions of dollars!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): he did go crazy with that gun and the absinthe the one time
Zoe Foodiboo: Sasa, you're the best.
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): i know
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): (LOL) :)
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): but thanks for noticing
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): /me giggles
Zoe Foodiboo: No, I'd leave that to Chicago, Web.
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): so modest
webspelunker Ghostraven: Book,people, book people!
Zoe Foodiboo: huh?
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): hehe web
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): we ARE talking about the book!
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): i think people think too big when they want to reenact crime
Zoe Foodiboo: oh, the book
webspelunker Ghostraven: What we're here for Zoe!
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): we dont need shootouts and bank robberies
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): throws her book at Web
webspelunker Ghostraven: What?
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): but mugging, pick pockets, beggars, people fighting in the streets
Zoe Foodiboo: I want crimes like in the book. You're so hungry you mug someone or steal from Morgy or something.
webspelunker Ghostraven: /me ducks
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): pfffffft
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): you want more Elvinas?
webspelunker Ghostraven: That's no way to treat a book!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Zoe, fine her!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes, we want more Elvinas :)
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): she was here last night!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): no, watching out for Elvina is more than enough work for me
Zoe Foodiboo: people who wouldn't ordinarily steal but because of the times and they're so hungry, they're driven to commit crimes. petty ones.
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): exactly Zoe
webspelunker Ghostraven: That's not crime according to Marx..
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): she chated with me and mo for abit and tried to steal some liqquor
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): and the book ( see Web) does bring that out
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): who asked Marx?!
Zoe Foodiboo: I don't think we need glamourous mob stuff
Zoe Foodiboo: that's for Chicago
webspelunker Ghostraven: merely redistribution of stolen goods!
Zoe Foodiboo: those meanies
webspelunker Ghostraven: Hey, watch what you say about those guys!
Zoe Foodiboo: Marx? Oh I thought she said Max.
webspelunker Ghostraven: They defined a generation!
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): also more "normal" people with more or less hidden problems in life
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Yeah, tell me about it. Cicero will never be the same.
webspelunker Ghostraven: I said Marx as in Karl Marx!
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): i like that most of berlin is already more about normal day to day stuff
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): (Why isn't that crime to Marx? One poor person impinging upon the liberties of another impoverished person would be a crime, wouldn't it?)
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): those are the ones that make those small crimes because they feel that they have to
Zoe Foodiboo: bah, our Max is much more interesting.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Hmmmm, hidden problems?
webspelunker Ghostraven: Thank heavens for AvN!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Oh no
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Ah I see.
webspelunker Ghostraven: 10 minute warning!
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): or maybe "issues" is a more suitable word than "problems"
Zoe Foodiboo: Speaking of Max, it's almost time for El D. Any last thoughts before we go get drunk and stare at boobies?
webspelunker Ghostraven: Who'd like to speak who hasn't yet?
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): hehe Zoe
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods to Herr Boberg
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): oh eldo
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): forgot about that!
Zoe Foodiboo: er, b-o-o-b-i-e-s
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): i must be getting ill
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Zoe! Spell that!
Emily Theriac (THX1138 Theriac): i have to go for abit bye every one:)
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): folks, I have to go, shout pervert at sonatta before the eldo opens
webspelunker Ghostraven: by Emily!
Frau Jo Yardley (Jo Yardley): thanks for organising this!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): bye Emily
Zoe Foodiboo: Thanks for coming everyone!
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): Bye, Sasa and everyone departing, I should run, too, but only to see everyone very shortly!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Thanks all!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): ye sI have to go too
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, I'm glad I made it. This was fun.
webspelunker Ghostraven: It was!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I enjoy these discussions!
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): This rocks, Zoe, thank you. :)
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes, this was.
webspelunker Ghostraven: A good crowd!
Penny (Penny Luckstone): Herr Web, now you show Penny da piktures?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Thank you very much.
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me smiles and waves to everyone!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): thank you all so much
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): it was great to talk with you
Zoe Foodiboo: Penny, you have given us a good idea.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Scram kid, yer bothering me!
Zoe Foodiboo: Maybe we should have a storytime for the kids at the library. Augusta used to do something similar at school.
Zoe Foodiboo: Web!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Web, be nice to the little sones!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): *ones
webspelunker Ghostraven: What?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): picks her book up and throws it twice as hard at Web
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): it's a kid !
Zoe Foodiboo: /me throws peanuts at Web
Penny (Penny Luckstone): /me hides by da nice lady here
webspelunker Ghostraven: I don't do them well!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Gosh, I mixed up with Penny and Panny
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): some age difference
Zoe Foodiboo: /me grins at Gustav
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I will start the story again when school starts in the fall
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): see you all later
Maddie (MaddieGraceGearz Resident): This was really great! Thank you.
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): waves
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Max und Moritz -- if we can get new kids
Zoe Foodiboo: I hope to see you two in Berlin, Maddie and Penny
webspelunker Ghostraven: any last words!
Maddie (MaddieGraceGearz Resident): Is there a list of the books you've already read?
Zoe Foodiboo: We have school on Sundays at noon SLT
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Yes, very nice to meet you!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): well, it will start again in the fall
Zoe Foodiboo: On Goodreads, Maddie.
Zoe Foodiboo: Let me get you a link
Maddie (MaddieGraceGearz Resident): Thank you
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): we've read some great books!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I think we should do Artificial Silk Girl again
Zoe Foodiboo: We sure have!
Zoe Foodiboo: Let me get you a link to Augusta's blogpost about the bookclub.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): /me smiles
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Well, I'm going to Eldo. See you around there. Thanks for organizing the book club. It was really fun :)
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): /me hands Penny an animal cracker
Bror Jacob Boberg (bejiblueman Resident): thank you friends, this was very interesting, and i look forward to read the books
Penny (Penny Luckstone): Tank you Ma'am.
Zoe Foodiboo: www.goodreads.com/group/show/66935-1920s-berlin-buchgemei...
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): you are welcome, Liebchen!
Zoe Foodiboo: Welcome and thank you all for coming to the first bookclub meeting of the new year - yay!
AlasAndAlack: Hallo Duncan and Abinoam!
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Hallo, Neilty. :)
Adele Kling: I enjoyed your photographs of the clock in Posterdam, Frl. Pauline :)
webspelunker Ghostraven: That last year went by fast!
Pauline Clary: Hello Duncan and Abinoam!
lasAndAlack: And Neilty.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): Hi Pauline
Pauline Clary: Hello Steadman
Zoe Foodiboo: Hello Neilty
Adele Kling: Hallo, alle
Zoe Foodiboo: Pleasure to meet you.
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777) smiles at those she hasn't met, "Hallo, nice to meet you. I'm Camden Carlisle."
webspelunker Ghostraven: Pleased to meet you!
Zoe Foodiboo smiles
Zoe Foodiboo: A few housekeeping notes before we get started. My inlaws are coming to visit next month so Webspelunker and the bookclub committee will take care of the February bookclub meeting. Yay!
Neilty Marville: hello :D
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): Angenehm
webspelunker Ghostraven: Be happy to!
Zoe Foodiboo: Please stay tuned for announcements via the inworld group and our FB group.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): .-'`'-. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE .-'`'-.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Does that mean I get a key to your flat?
Adele Kling: Oh, inlaws, mine are awful.
Zoe Foodiboo: No.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Too bad…
webspelunker Ghostraven: Mine were shot…
AlasAndAlack chuckles.
Zoe Foodiboo: And my inlaws are lovely :) I chat with my MIL once a week :)
Today we're going to discuss Chapters 1&2 of 'Weimar Germany: Promise and Tragedy'. To start us off, let me share a little bit about the author…
Adele Kling: ((They are awful RL too, lol))
Zoe Foodiboo: (from his CUNY profile) Eric D. Weitz is currently the Dean of Humanities and Arts and Distinguished Professor of History at the City College of New York.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yay for CUNY!
Adele Kling: !!
Zoe Foodiboo: He was previously on the faculty of the University of Minnesota, where he was Distinguished McKnight University Professor of History and the Arsham and Charlotte Ohanessian Chair in the College of Liberal Arts.
Zoe Foodiboo: Trained in modern European and German history, his work in recent years has extended to the history and politics of international human rights and crimes against humanity.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Do we know if he has Marxist tendencies?
Zoe Foodiboo sighs
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen) gasps!
Zoe Foodiboo: He received his Ph.D. from Boston University in 1983.
Zoe Foodiboo: Dr. Weitz gave a very insightful interview which can be heard on the 41st episode of the Princeton University Press Podcast. Save this link to listen to the (free!) interview after our discussion:
Zoe Foodiboo: itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/princeton-university-press/id...
webspelunker Ghostraven: Many thanks!
Zoe Foodiboo: Okay, so before I hand the meeting over to Webspelunker, how many of you have read the book?
webspelunker Ghostraven: I have!
Neilty Marville: what book?
Zoe Foodiboo: thank goodness
AlasAndAlack raises her hand.
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777): I've read the first 2 chapters
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen) jumps up and down in her chair. "I did! I did! Well ... the first two chapters, anyway."
webspelunker Ghostraven: That was the assignment!
Zoe Foodiboo: Ah. 'Weimar Germany: Promise and Tragedy' by Eric D. Weitz
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777): I enjoyed them immensely!
Neilty Marville: I I I ummm
Duncan Armundsen: /hides behind the curtain
Neilty Marville: notme
Zoe Foodiboo: It's okay if you haven't
webspelunker Ghostraven: BTW whoever recommended this book…
webspelunker Ghostraven: Made a great choice!
Neilty Marville slidesinto the chair
Zoe Foodiboo: In a couple of sentences, will someone summarize chapters 1&2 for those who haven't read the book?
Pauline Clary: It was a delicious read
webspelunker Ghostraven: Be happy too if you like!
Zoe Foodiboo motions to Web to go ahead, then sips her tea
Adele Kling: I enjoyed it.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Be warned I look at history through a Marxist prism!
Pauline Clary: First chapter describes ending of WWI and revolutionary atmosphere
Zoe Foodiboo: It's very readable, isn't it?
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen) sputters on her Haut-Brion.
webspelunker Ghostraven: The first two chapters set the scene for what is too come…
Zoe Foodiboo nods in agreement with Pauline, "That's right, thank you."
webspelunker Ghostraven: Germany is a ruin…
Pauline Clary: Yes, he's a great writer. Very lively style
webspelunker Ghostraven: Militarily, politically, financially, and..
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777): I especially enjoyed the "walking tour" of Berlin in the second chapter
Zoe Foodiboo: And Chapter 2 takes us on a walk through the city. To set the stage for the rest of the book.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Emotionally…
Pauline Clary nods
webspelunker Ghostraven: Which gives us a very good sense of the social frame of reference in Berlin at the time...
Pauline Clary: the revolution started in the harbors
webspelunker Ghostraven: Everyone thinks that there were two types of Germans....
webspelunker Ghostraven: It started in the trenches!
Zoe Foodiboo listens to Web with interest
Zoe Foodiboo: Two?
webspelunker Ghostraven: The sailors were afraid to fight and revolted…
Adele Kling: Yes. The sailors movement was amazing
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, the good and the bad…
webspelunker Ghostraven: A gross oversimplification!
Pauline Clary: Well, the marine was pushed to take up the battle again and they refused
Adele Kling: and the formation of councils
Pauline Clary: the sailors protested
webspelunker Ghostraven: They didn't want to get their feet wet!
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): I felt in a general sense, the first chapter explains the immediate results of the war, it's tragedy and the political and personal chaos that ensued as a result, where the second explored, by means of a walking tour of the city, what's nicely summed up at the very end of Chapter Two: "[N]o single group, no individual, could claim Berlin as its own. No one dominated Berlin, and no consensus reigned." This created great unease, but also ideal circumstances, in some ways, for the great creativity and free expression of the time.
Adele Kling nods
Pauline Clary: yes the councils
AlasAndAlack: War is never easy to explain.
Neilty Marville: sure it is
webspelunker Ghostraven: The sturmtruppen had been in the trenches for almost 4 years...
Neilty Marville raisees his hand up
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, Neilty?
Neilty Marville: war's very easy to explain
Neilty Marville: one person wants what another person wants
webspelunker Ghostraven: Please, go on…
Neilty Marville: the other person or country won't give it up
Neilty Marville: so the one country says okay I'll fight you until you give it up
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777): so sad when people try to pick up the pieces of their lives after a war
Neilty Marville: be it power finaches exports you name it
Neilty Marville: even with the surrender
Neilty Marville: I mean look at world war 2 with hitler
Neilty Marville: hitler wanted to rle the world
Neilty Marville: and america didn't want that
webspelunker Ghostraven: No disagreement Neilty but…
Neilty Marville: look at the revolutionary war
webspelunker Ghostraven: History expects more of a story!
Neilty Marville: british wanted to stopo america from being a new country
Neilty Marville: I mean heck
Neilty Marville: the civil war
Neilty Marville: the south wanted slaves and the north didn't
Adele Kling: Interesting thoughts, but could we get back to the Weimar Republic?
Adele Kling smiles
Neilty Marville: yes
Pauline Clary: Important outcome of the revolutionary atmosphere in 1918 is overthrowing of institutions as the emperor Wilhelm II
Adele Kling: Yes
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, but another important outcome was…
Pauline Clary: old garde was kicked out
webspelunker Ghostraven: The failure to form a strong government!
Adele Kling: Not entirely, though.
Pauline Clary: yes due to many political ideas
Pauline Clary: too many
webspelunker Ghostraven: The army stayed…
webspelunker Ghostraven: The lessons of 1917 were learned very quickly in the West!
Pauline Clary: but supported the new governemnt
webspelunker Ghostraven: To a degree..
Pauline Clary: the councils played a mayor role in the streets
webspelunker Ghostraven: They were looking for a man on horseback…
Adele Kling: Yes, they did, Pauline.
webspelunker Ghostraven: And let's not forget the effect of the Freikorps!
Adele Kling: "a very basic and democratic form of democracy."
webspelunker Ghostraven: Essentially a paramilitary doing the capitalists dirty work!
Pauline Clary: And chancellor Ebert try to form a of government. Ebert was first chancellor
Adele Kling: Is how Weitz describes the councils
webspelunker Ghostraven: Close to anarchists!
Steadman Kondor: Oh was that Grandpa Foobido just popped into my screen
Adele Kling: They voiced the concerns of mostly working-class people
webspelunker Ghostraven: Does anyone not think that this period led to what came later in Germany?
Adele Kling: the bulks of council members were working class males.
SantiagoFoodiboo waves quietly, "Just came to take a few photos. You young folks enjoy your discussion"
Adele Kling: I don't know enough about the history to say.
Adele Kling waves and smiles
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): I don't think there was strict causation, Webs--it could have gone very differently--but it certainly made it possible, too.
Adele Kling: Hallo Grandpa!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Germany had a choice in 1918/19 and made the wrong one or…
webspelunker Ghostraven: Maybe failed to make one at all!
AlasAndAlack poses briefly for Grandpa Foodiboo and then listens intently to discussion again.
Adele Kling: I hope to learn more in the next two chapters where we discuss politics, and economy.
Pauline Clary: I think they were afraid the bolsjewists would drive Berlin towards the Russian model
Adele Kling: What do you mean by that, Herr Web?
webspelunker Ghostraven: They were....
webspelunker Ghostraven: Hence the Armistice…
webspelunker Ghostraven: And the theory about the stab in the back was born!
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): The way I see it, "Germany," as such, didn't make a choice--rather, a group in Germany, representing only a portion of its population, won what was, at the time, very much a wild dog fight amidst a great deal of chaos.
webspelunker Ghostraven: By failing to put a strong civilian government in…
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777): The armistice seems quite harsh to Germany
Adele Kling: Yes, ....
webspelunker Ghostraven: The military stayed independent..There was never a majority party, always a compromise.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Yes, I agree with Alas.
Pauline Clary: Yes, many parties demanding
webspelunker Ghostraven: Didn't intervene to stop the street fighting that toppled Weimar for the Fascists.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, if the Allies had been more prudent it would have helped.
Pauline Clary: Another important thing was the Versailles Treaty, which put a tremendous finacial burden on Germany
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777): yes, with the reparations Germany had to pay
webspelunker Ghostraven: All part of the Armistice!
Pauline Clary: That increased the oppositions
AlasAndAlack: In retrospect, and there were some who said so at the time, it was not wise to expect Germany to pay all the reparations. They couldn't. All it did was make the situation untenable for everyone.
webspelunker Ghostraven: There was confusion and fear of local soviets forming..
Adele Kling: The rich remained rich
webspelunker Ghostraven: They always do!
Adele Kling laughs
webspelunker Ghostraven: Turn the poor against one another!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Right, Eloise?
AlasAndAlack: Germany was indignant and blamed everyone else - "the stab in the back" story that the Nazi's were to use so well.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): I think in conditions of chaos, extreme inflation, a lost war, etc., those with the better intentions--those who aimed at an inclusive, conciliatory government--naturally aimed at compromise, but they had insufficient tools to make it possible. In a situation like that, often it's the extremists who flourish, and sadly, in this case, one such extreme eventually came out of the fray victorious.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Which was never repudiated by the other political parties!
Neilty Marville: sorry about that hehe
Pauline Clary: I had to laugh about the guy who remained seated while speeching in Versailles
Pauline Clary: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Ulrich_Graf_v...
Pauline Clary: foreign mimister and one of the old aristocratic league
AlasAndAlack: Isn't it funny how a little thing like sitting down can affect the course of history so monumentally?
webspelunker Ghostraven: so, halfway through....
webspelunker Ghostraven: What might have happened within Germany to avert what came later?
Adele Kling nods
Pauline Clary raises her hand
Zoe Foodiboo whispers: hi Titsy! Welcome!
Titania Netizen: hallo!!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes Pauline!
Zoe Foodiboo: We're having our bookclub meeting. Please have a seat.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Hello Titsy!
Pauline Clary: When will we come to the shopping part?
webspelunker Ghostraven: Two meetings!
Adele Kling looks surprise
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777) chuckles
Titania Netizen: hallo everybody
Adele Kling waves
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (I really did like the shopping part, pretty interesting, I thought!) :)
Zoe Foodiboo whispers: Everyone, this is Titsy. A very good friend of mine and a very old Berliner
webspelunker Ghostraven: Was 1933 inevitable?
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Hallo, Titsy. :)
AlasAndAlack whispers hallo!
Titania Netizen whispers: :)
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777) smiles, "Hallo, Tisey"
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Oh, I think definitely not, Webs.
Adele Kling: I think we need to do a little more reading to make an assessment, Herr Webb
Titania Netizen: nice to meet you all
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): lovely to see you again, Titania
Pauline Clary: That's what interested me a lot, about the 'new' women
Adele Kling: Chapter one of the book, felt like an introduction, and the 2nd chapter, was a walking tour.
Titania Netizen: what is the book today?
webspelunker Ghostraven: I disagree!
Zoe Foodiboo: ((I was taking photos earlier. Thank you for steering the conversation back to the book, Adele))
Adele Kling: What do the other's think?
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): About inevitability?
Adele Kling: *others
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes…
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777): I enjoyed Chapter 2 so much, such a lovely walking tour. I like how Franz Hessel put it, "To walk slowly down lively streets is a great pleasure. The rush of others washes over you like a bath in the surf." (p. 43)
AlasAndAlack: Weimar Germany: Promise and Tragedy
Zoe Foodiboo: 'Weimar Germany: Promise and Tragedy' by Eric D. Weitz, Titsy. Chapters 1 and 2.
webspelunker Ghostraven: The first chapter sets the stage…
webspelunker Ghostraven: All comes from this…
Pauline Clary: What struck me was…
Zoe Foodiboo: Chapter 1 was about the end of WW1 and revolution. Chapter 2 took us on a walk around Berlin in the 20s.
Adele Kling: Sets the stage, but the play hasn't begun. *smiles*
Steadman Kondor: @ i think all the countries played a role in making 1933... even England
AlasAndAlack: Web, I don't think anything is predestined, but in hindsight, it is easy to see what influences lead to what happened.
Pauline Clary: the conclusion of ch 1: "renewed morality, inner transformation and a new birth"
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777): yes, chapter 1 set the stage politically, but the second chapter set the stage socially, I think
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Statistically, the Nazi party made up only a minority of the German populace for most of the Republic's existence. They were, however, arguably the most ruthless, which is why 1933 eventually came to be. But to say it's inevitable doesn't seem right to me.
webspelunker Ghostraven: All good points!
Pauline Clary: "renewed morality, inner transformation and a new birth" made me think of the sixties
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Oh, I like that quote, Pauline. :)
webspelunker Ghostraven whispers: Eloise gets it!
AlasAndAlack: The time was ripe for revolution, certainly!
Pauline Clary: the developments in art and expression are similar
Pauline Clary: to that of the hippies
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, and right after major wars and social disruptions…
Zoe Foodiboo: revolution gets the creative juices flowing. plenty of inspiration
webspelunker Ghostraven: Indeed!
webspelunker Ghostraven: What might German society felt like then?
Pauline Clary: vibrant?
AlasAndAlack: The old regime was crumbling, there was a mix of new art, new technology, new freedom in society, women for the first time could come outside the home, could vote.
Steadman Kondor: only during revolution, words and books become so important they are banned and fought over even more than peace time.
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777): and we could shop unescorted *smiles*
Adele Kling: Women were outside of their home quite a bit. But voting, yes that was great.
AlasAndAlack: Women other than prostitutes could walk on the street!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, but what about the upper class women reduced to selling themselves on the street to support their families?
AlasAndAlack: I loved that part about the department stores making the store windows well lighted - making window shopping respectable - a respectable woman could stand on the street.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Wounded soldiers begging on the sidewalk…
Adele Kling: Women fetch coal, and pumped water on the streets. They went to market, and sold goods on the streets.
Adele Kling: *fetched
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777): and what about the families who were trying to rebuild their lives when their husband/father didn't return from war, or returned missing limbs, couldn't work, could barely get by
AlasAndAlack: There were lots of changes for women - good and bad.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Oh yes, I loved that part, Alas.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Exactly!
Zoe Foodiboo nods at Camden
webspelunker Ghostraven: How many of you in this room have been impoverished by the war?
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777): There were many tragic stories after the war as people adjusted to a new way of living.
Pauline Clary: Yes the image of the sculpture
Zoe Foodiboo: Alas....or anyone else...did anything you read about the women inspire your rp here in our community?
Adele Kling: I'm a Yank
webspelunker Ghostraven: That explains a lot!
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Oh, it definitely gave me ideas, Zoe.
AlasAndAlack: Throughout history women have degraded themselves for food and shelter for themselves and their children. That part in Weimar Germany was not new.
Zoe Foodiboo: Ah....are we all expats?
Zoe Foodiboo: Want to share a few, Elo?
Pauline Clary: I think I live next to a Mietskaserne
Adele Kling: Fetching water is not very degrading, unless you are upper class.
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777): I roleplay as a professional here with an office, and it was interesting to read about the freedoms afforded women of the 20s
webspelunker Ghostraven: If political refugee is included, yes!
Zoe Foodiboo: Part of the reason for having bookclub is to help support our rp here.
webspelunker Ghostraven: And to further Marxism!
Adele Kling laughs
Zoe Foodiboo: Alright already with the Marxism.... :)
Steadman Kondor: i felt for the women when they had to vacate their factory jobs, when th men came home. the jobs offered them their first financial and other freedoms
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777): Reading about the places in the book, and Googling them and looking at street views on Google maps was interesting as I walked the streets of 1920s Berlin Project and noticed such authenticity here
AlasAndAlack: Lol, Zoe, there was one part of the book that I marked for my RP.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Just to add to Alas's point, the author writes, "The department stores were THE decisive innovation." (emphasis mine)
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, the authenticity here is incredible!
Zoe Foodiboo: I think sonatta said something about that - women working and their freedom - inspiring fashion...looser dresses that you can move around in, that sort of thing.
Zoe Foodiboo: Which part, Alas?
AlasAndAlack: Indeed, the walk through Berlin was amazing for me.
AlasAndAlack: Ummm, ok, remembering that I am a vamp…
Zoe Foodiboo: Sorry, I forgot, is Alas from originally? Are you rping german?
AlasAndAlack: No, I'm from New York, my Daddy is a Wall Street broker.
AlasAndAlack: I was sent to Europe because I was too interested in the boy across the hedge row.
Adele Kling yawns
webspelunker Ghostraven: Like to meet some new Marxist friends?
Adele Kling: I need to say goodbye. Have a good evening, all.
Zoe Foodiboo: Ah, so which part of the reading did you bookmark for your rp?
webspelunker Ghostraven: TC
Zoe Foodiboo: Bye Adele!
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777): Goodbye, Adele!
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (Bye, Adele!) :)
Pauline Clary: Bye Adele!
AlasAndAlack: Night Adele!
webspelunker Ghostraven: 15 mins to go!
Pauline Clary: I find the housing projects by Bruno Taut interesting
webspelunker Ghostraven: How so Pauline?
Zoe Foodiboo: The beginnings of the nuclear family
Pauline Clary: Onkel Tom's Siedlung
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777): yes, that was interesting, Pauline
Pauline Clary: Because it was so very progressive
AlasAndAlack: I am sure I might meet some Marxists at the local bar, Web. Jo was gossiping about me and Crispin moving in together. I said:
AlasAndAlack: I don't want to be a housekeeper or secretary or laundress. I just want that rich and fulfilling sex life like the book promises.
Steadman Kondor grins
AlasAndAlack: That is from the introduction.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Ahh!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Good luck with that!
Zoe Foodiboo grins, "Well, you picked the right gent!"
AlasAndAlack: So that is what I took from our book club today.
Zoe Foodiboo: Fantastic. Any last comments before we make our way home?
AlasAndAlack: Slightly derailing the intellectual tact we have been on.:)
Pauline Clary: Be a flapper!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Wouldn't be the first time!
Pauline Clary: show your knees!
Zoe Foodiboo laughs at Pauline
AlasAndAlack: It is afternoon. I only show my knees in the evening when Jo isn't around!
Pauline Clary: I'm looing forward to the next two chapters
Pauline Clary: *looking
Frl. Camden Carlisle (camden777): When is our next meeting?
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): One thing I liked--in terms of inspiring roleplay--is how it described shopping not just as a means of women getting out of the home and remaining "respectable," but that it was social, they'd do it together. It made me want to shop in Berlin with friends, take someone with me, instead of going out and about myself.
Zoe Foodiboo: Ah yes, Alas, Eloise, and Augusta will take care of February's meeting.
AlasAndAlack: I really enjoyed this book. It is a great help to getting to know more about our time period in Berlin.
Zoe Foodiboo: It's on the 28th at 1pm...unless they decide to change it. It's all up to them!
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): I agree, this has been great!
Zoe Foodiboo: I'll shop with you, Elo!
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): :)
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, thank you all for coming today. I hope you enjoyed yourselves!
Steadman Kondor: Now it's less laggy: i loved how the country germans criticised berlin... "It's not Germany. The capital is inhabited by visionaries, dreamers and adventurers who live ina delusion." That's what i want to be, a dreamer. auf wiedersehen all
Join us on Wednesday, November 23rd at 12pm PT with author Courttia Newland.
www.draxtor.com/sl-book-club-...
Courttia Newland - courttianewland.com/
Book Club Location: second.life/bookclub
Book Club Youtube Playlist: second.life/slbc
Book Club Flickr Group: www.flickr.com/groups/secondl...
Book Club Discord: discord.gg/dtTubshPbg
The Second Life Book Club is a series of literary-minded events. For more information, and to suggest show topics or guests, please visit www.draxtor.com/slbookclub
Visit this location at Second Life Book Club Island in Second Life
The following is the chatlog from our November 2014 Bookclub Discussion. Our reading for this discussion was Thomas Mann's 'Disorder and Early Sorrow'.
*Photo credit: Duncan Armundsen
Zoe Foodiboo: Okay well, we've only got an hour so let's get started
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): Darned, my lighter got wet
Zoe Foodiboo: To answer your earlier question, Hank, bookclub is OOC.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): ah ok
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): good to know
Zoe Foodiboo: I’ll start by giving a brief overview of the book and the author, then I’ll give you an idea of what we hope to discuss today.
Zoe Foodiboo: First, a summary of the book…
Zoe Foodiboo: 'Disorder and Early Sorrow' was written in 1925, with characters that were structured after members of the author's own family.
Zoe Foodiboo: I can send you a Mann bio afterward
Zoe Foodiboo: This short story examines the life of the Cornelius family through the eyes of Abel Cornelius, a professor at the local university, whose once respected position has become virtually irrelevant.
Zoe Foodiboo: In “Disorder and Early Sorrow,” Mann depicts the economic, cultural, and societal consequences of the German hyperinflation of the 1920’s.
Pauline Clary nods
Zoe Foodiboo: Now, about the author...
Zoe Foodiboo: Thomas Mann was born in Lubeck, Northern Germany, in 1875, to a merchant named Johann and his wife Julia.
Zoe Foodiboo: He was meant to take over his father's grain firm but, unfortunately, his father died when he was only 15 and the firm was liquidated.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): oh…
Zoe Foodiboo: Thomas performed poorly in school but enjoyed studying on his own.
Zoe Foodiboo: After a brief stint as a clerk at an insurance company in Munich, Thomas published his first set of short stories, and continued prolifically thereafter.
Zoe Foodiboo: He won the Nobel prize in literature in 1929.
Pauline Clary: That's very recent!
Zoe Foodiboo: And I won't tell you much more because I suspect we'll talk a lot about his family today.
Zoe Foodiboo: So, what we'll discuss today…
Zoe Foodiboo: Let's begin by 1) sharing our thoughts on the reading, then move on to 2) considering if and how the effects of Germany's hyperinflation can be evidenced in our virtual reenactment here on our sim.
Zoe Foodiboo: Unfortunately, Webchen can't be with us today so you're stuck with me as moderator. :)
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): we'll manage somehow, surely
Pauline Clary: Awwww
Zoe Foodiboo: Not my strong suit, but I do love our discussions!
Camden Carlisle (camden777): This is my first discussion and I'm excited to be here
Zoe Foodiboo: So, general thoughts on the reading?
Zoe Foodiboo: We're glad you're here, Camden.
Stina Skov (stinaskov): It's my first too, I'm here to learn
Camden Carlisle (camden777): Danke, thank you
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): Greetings, Frl Carlisle
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): and Frl Skov
Zoe Foodiboo: Oh, gosh, I should let you introduce yourselves
Camden Carlisle (camden777): Danke
Zoe Foodiboo: Fraulein Carlisle is new to Berlin....
Pauline Clary: Welcome
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl) smiles
Camden Carlisle (camden777) nods, "recently arrived from London. Thank you"
Zoe Foodiboo: Fraulein Skov is Sasa's sister!
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): welcome
Zoe Foodiboo: and a journalist
Stina Skov (stinaskov): it is frau Skov actually
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Oh, that's marvelous, welcome!
Zoe Foodiboo: Oh right, my apologies. Frau Skov.
Stina Skov (stinaskov): but Stina works as well
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): I am Fraeulein von Nassau, a teacher here in Berlin
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam) sips champagne
Zoe Foodiboo whispers: Hi Beckka
Stina Skov (stinaskov): Nice to meet you
Beckka Fredericks (lschicky.fredericks): hallo
Pauline Clary: Hi Beckka
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): Hello I'm Sasa and I'm not an alcoholic
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl) giggles
Pauline Clary giggles
Zoe Foodiboo: Had anyone read Mann before we read this novella?
AlasAndAlack looks surprised.
Beckka Fredericks (lschicky.fredericks): hahaha
Pauline Clary: No, never
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): I've read many men
AlasAndAlack: No, I can't say that I had read Mann before.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): yes
AlasAndAlack is not surprised.
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, backing up, has everyone done the reading?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): I believe a very long time ago
Camden Carlisle (camden777): No, I have not
Zoe Foodiboo: It's okay if you haven't…
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): no
AlasAndAlack: Yes, I read the story.
Pauline Clary: Yes I have read it
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Mhm, I did! I did, Zoe! I did! I did the reading! (quiets down again)
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): you can fake it otherwise
Zoe Foodiboo chuckles
Camden Carlisle (camden777): Is the story usually given prior to a meeting?
Zoe Foodiboo: That's wonderful, Eloise - you may have an extra cupcake!
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Woo hoo!
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, I let everyone know via group notices and FB.
Pauline Clary: You're good fakes things professionally Sasy ;-)
Zoe Foodiboo: and it's always in my picks.
Camden Carlisle (camden777): Thank you. I've been here only a few days and missed the notice *smiles*
Zoe Foodiboo: It's okay. I can recap the story a little.
Zoe Foodiboo: It's set in the 20s…
Pauline Clary: It's about a party
Zoe Foodiboo: and the entire novella focuses on a few hours spent with the Cornelius family
Zoe Foodiboo nods at Pauline, "Yep."
Zoe Foodiboo: It opens with them finishing up their meal
Pauline Clary nods
Zoe Foodiboo: They’re an upper middle class family but hyperinflation has clearly had an impact on their lifestyle.
Zoe Foodiboo: Their meal is simple
Zoe Foodiboo: Their furnishings in need of repair
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): I think it's no coincidence that it's a family--what I mean is--people of all ages, spanning different times, the old and the new. To me, much of the novella's strength comes from seeing what's changing--and still, what's not. :)
Zoe Foodiboo: Their clothes a little shabby
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, there is a focus on gaps between generations
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): Who could afford new things then?
Pauline Clary: They're short of eggs
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, there is the instance of the eggs
Zoe Foodiboo: There are 4 children all together, two teens and two toddlers
Zoe Foodiboo: The teens and one of the servants are sent to buy eggs
Zoe Foodiboo: Eggs are being rationed
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): oh dear
Zoe Foodiboo: So they go in the shop one by one, each pretending to be from a different family, to get their allotment of eggs
Zoe Foodiboo: was it 5? 6? to last the week, Pauline?
Pauline Clary: yes it was
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): for the whole family?
Zoe Foodiboo nods
Pauline Clary: yes
AlasAndAlack: As people interested in history (which I assume we all are, because we are here in 1929 Berlin), we are fascinated by the comments concerning the recent and rapid decline in the status quo- middle class to servant status in the case of the kitchen sisters “ladies Hinterhofer,” the cost of eggs going up by the day and the subterfuge to purchase enough of them.
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): eggs are nourishing
Zoe Foodiboo: and the family includes a set of grandparents, a set of parents, the four children and....3 servants?
Pauline Clary: I think so
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): oh goodness
Pauline Clary: Xaver
AlasAndAlack: Are the grandparents actually seen? They are mentioned. The ancients.
Pauline Clary: Old folk
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes Alas, in the novella the author - or the translator, maybe, since I read the English version - uses the term "villa proletariat" to describe them.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): it's the author
Zoe Foodiboo: No, the grandparents are mentioned but aren't included in the scene described
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): Villenproletarier in the original, checked
Pauline Clary: Teens are called 'big folk'
Zoe Foodiboo: ah
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): villa proletariat?
Pauline Clary: Toddlers 'Little Folk'
Zoe Foodiboo: Is this a term you're familiar with Augusta?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): no, not really
Zoe Foodiboo: Both Abi and I mentioned we underlined it because it was the first time we had encountered it.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): if you google the term, there are oral history things online, where people describe their family background like that, so it's not just Mann's invention
Zoe Foodiboo: Oh really? Interesting.
Zoe Foodiboo: So the first part of the novel describes the effects of hyperinflation on this family.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): or things like this, on google books...http://books.google.rs/books?id=ussIRYACpl0C&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=villenproletarier&source=bl&ots=87gdzGxLQ4&sig=f5ZtcnmLEjE6d-6U7WUW0qFDg4M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aSR6VIz3AuL5ywP5pYDQAw&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=villenproletarier&f=false
Zoe Foodiboo: The second part focuses on a party that the teens are hosting in the home.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): teens are such a nuisance... always have been
Zoe Foodiboo: And that's where the theme of generation gaps comes in....the father commenting on the dress and music and dance, etc. of the younger generation.
Zoe Foodiboo: lol, Abi
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): :D
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (One of the things that do NOT change, I suppose. ;) I loved that part of the novella very much: what changes, what doesn't.)
Camden Carlisle (camden777): ah, but we were all teens once *winks*
AlasAndAlack: The party emphasizes the more timeless theme underneath the economic status - the struggle between the established and the upcoming generation. You can read the same kind of things written on the pyramids of Egypt.
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): yeah and not too long ago
AlasAndAlack: Yes, Eloise, that contrast is startling.
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, it was interesting after reading a bit about Mann's RL, to read this novel and imagine that this is how his children got to know him. Not directly, but through his writings.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): yes, i remember Klaus M, his son, writing something to that effect
Zoe Foodiboo: That is true, Alas. And I thought about our sim here....do we see that difference? Is it possible to reenact that?
Zoe Foodiboo: Frau Jo kind of reminds me of Abel.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): Generational differences?
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): Another really nice thing about the story are the nuances: Even the professor, at one point says something like, "And if you really look at the new dances, they're not really that bad, I suppose"--something like that.
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, Augusta. I'm wondering if we see generational differences here in our Berlin.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (I think we do: Frau Jo and Fraulein Mo immediately come to mind.) :)
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): I'm not so sure we do as much as we could
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): do we have any three-generation families here?
Zoe Foodiboo: I think the most we've had is two
AlasAndAlack: Yes, about dancing, Abel says their way of holding each other is quite different and strange, but later he remarks on how Max does it so well and it is a pleasure to watch him.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): Mamma and Pappa do not live here in Berlin
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (Oh, not that I know if, Abinoam, but what a great idea that is!)
Zoe Foodiboo: Leila never had children, and Rose's grandparents never made an appearance
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): and she had three babies
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): Rose father did
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): that's three generations
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): we don't seem to have many (or any) very old people, do we?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): we used to
AlasAndAlack: I do sometimes make fun of my parents and remark how I behave differently, but that is mostly for comic effect so far.
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, Alas, Max inspired - what did he call it? Paternal jealousy?
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): We hope for Bubbe to get back
Pauline Clary: Who is Bubbe?
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): a very unique old lady who lived here before
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): Leila's grandmother
Zoe Foodiboo: Bubbe is Leila's grandmother.
Zoe Foodiboo: Leila was Zeno's wife.
Zoe Foodiboo: All three are gone now.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): *sighs*
Zoe Foodiboo: Though Zeno does still pay rent
Zoe Foodiboo: gosh, I miss Bubbe....but back to the book!
AlasAndAlack: Yes, Zoe, the father compares his boy unfavorably to several of the other boys, and when his favorite Ellie can only be calmed by Max coming to say good night, Abel feels toward Max “singular mixture of “thankfulness, embarrassment, and hatred.”
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): oh we're talking about Max in the book ....
Zoe Foodiboo: I think he commented that his son looked like a Russian peasant, didn't he?
Zoe Foodiboo: Bert
Zoe Foodiboo: Is Bert representative of Klaus, Abi?
Pauline Clary: Bert and Ingrid
Pauline Clary: the teens
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (I loved that part, Alas--the combination seems so self-contradictory, but SO human.)
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): that's typical, I think -- the older generation rather resenting the young
Zoe Foodiboo: Thomas Mann had more than 4 children
Pauline Clary: I had the impression that old Cornelius liked Max over his son Bert
Pauline Clary: Because Max is an engineer
Zoe Foodiboo: I think he was disappointed in Bert to some degree...Bert is "modern" and unambitious in his eyes
Zoe Foodiboo: unambitious
Pauline Clary: And Bert works at the Eldorado
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): there's your klaus lol
Zoe Foodiboo: heh He's Hank!
Pauline Clary: Bert would hang out with us in the Eldo
AlasAndAlack: Lol. It is true that Bert's highest ambition was to be a waiter at a club that might have like our El Dorado.
Zoe Foodiboo: bareheaded, shaggy Bert
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): There is a passage, I don't have it at my fingertips, but it says something about how the professor knows he's doing what all father's might: in their drawing of comparisons, of the "competition," casting the best light on what he knows about the others (which might, in fact, be very little), while being most critical of his own son. It suggests, "If he only knew...."
AlasAndAlack: Interesting that Abel says he can't tell the difference between his "middle class" son and the servant from a distance.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): yes
Zoe Foodiboo nods
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): nods
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): (Oh, nice observation. :) )
Pauline Clary: Who was Abel again?
Zoe Foodiboo: What about that game they play on the tram? Ingrid and Bert, posing as shopclerk and saying outrageous things.
AlasAndAlack: ABel is the dad.
Zoe Foodiboo: Abel is the father
Zoe Foodiboo: We never learned the mother's name.
Pauline Clary: Ahok
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): well, given the hyperinflation, what is the difference between middle class and other classes?
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): i liked that. i used to do similar things with my younger cousin lol also those phone pranks…
Pauline Clary: Yes insulting the public at the tram
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): At first blush, the difference might be only memory. :)
Pauline Clary: that was my favorite part
Zoe Foodiboo: yes
AlasAndAlack: Oh, I laughed - not only the prank conversations on the tram but the prank phone calls! So soon after telephones were established!
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): yes!
Pauline Clary: They where Rp-ing!
Zoe Foodiboo: they were!
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): lol
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl) smiles
Zoe Foodiboo: But they were only just barely able to hold on to their telephones....many families had to give them up
Pauline Clary: They where middle class , but very poor
Pauline Clary: that's typical for that hyper inflation period
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): nods
Spitz (spitzenscratch) watches rain coming through roof onto sofa in corner of room
AlasAndAlack: Funny what they hung onto as proper, and what they were willing to, or had to, give up.
Zoe Foodiboo: Putting up appearances.....keeping the phone, fretting over what to serve their guests
Zoe Foodiboo: Hello cat
Spitz (spitzenscratch) meows
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): we had hyperinflation here in the 90s, i could relate to a lot what he describes there, how people make do with what they have and attempt to go on
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): I would imagine that it's all one can do in that situation
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): i still have billions of old yugoslav dinars somewhere lol
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): *hug*
AlasAndAlack: The servant, Xaver's coat is too small. They mend their clothes. Yet they must have beer, no matter that it is watered and expensive. And Abel takes a box of his "not best" cigarettes to give to the guests.
Pauline Clary nods
AlasAndAlack: Haha, Abi, you have billions "somewhere"? It is not important where they are?
AlasAndAlack: That strikes me as funny :)
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): it's probably old currency?
Zoe Foodiboo: Did Mann's story give you ideas for your own rp here? For your character or for the way you decorate your apartment?
Pauline Clary: Beer hasn't inproved since then, in fact it's worse
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): not that they are or were worth anything. you could barely buy a pack of cigarettes with all that money
AlasAndAlack: But they are important historical artifacts, no?
Pauline Clary: I want loads of eggs in my apt
Zoe Foodiboo: hahah, Pauline
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): then you should get a chicken
Zoe Foodiboo: Pauline read Mann and thought, "I'm going to load up on eggs for my rp!"
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): i don't think so. there are so many copies of those banknotes, they are not a rarity
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): maybe in a few hundred years..., lol
Beckka Fredericks (lschicky.fredericks): hehehe
Pauline Clary: But what about the toddlers. The last scene is kind of special
AlasAndAlack: For me, reading this story came at a good time for my rp. I have played a high-handed and entitled young woman. I don't know how to be frugal.
Camden Carlisle (camden777) thinks to herself that she needs to become an egg seller in rp if she wants to get rich in Berlin
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): haha
AlasAndAlack: The kind of things I will hang onto and what I will let go is something I need to ponder.
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): black market was flourishing, we don't have much of that, do we?
Zoe Foodiboo: The last scene, where Ellie is throwing a tantrum and can only be consoled by Max?
AlasAndAlack: The little ones, yes!
Pauline Clary: Little Ellie was in bad shape
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): in 1929 there's no more hyperinflation though
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): yes, that's true
Pauline Clary: No we have a new currency now
AlasAndAlack: Would you say in 1929, some of that desperation is still in our daily lives?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): stabilized by the Dawes and Young Plans
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen) nods. I think things settled down by the mid-1920s, didn't they? So there was 4-5 years before the next economic calamity. Eloise, of course, is oblivious. LOL
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): :D
Pauline Clary: Ah yeah the stock markets
Zoe Foodiboo: Last ten minutes, any last thoughts
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): Sir Walter says the markets are up, up, up
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): unemployment was still. and once you're impoverished, it's difficult to get out of that vicious cycle
Sasa Steigerwald (sasasteigerwald): sir Walter says a lot of silly things
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): still high*
Pauline Clary: It was a bit of a hard read
Zoe Foodiboo: I haven't seen him in ages
Zoe Foodiboo: Was it, Pauline? Did you read it in English or German?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): neither have I…
Pauline Clary: I needed a dictionary quite often
AlasAndAlack: Back to Ellie at the end, the struggle of the father to be gracious to Max, who outshone him in his little daughter's eyes for a brief moment.
Zoe Foodiboo: I read it in English and I found it a little difficult.
Pauline Clary: English
Zoe Foodiboo: There were several words I didn't know.
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): It was a "dense" read, so to speak, for me, but worth it. :)
Pauline Clary: Like the Jabberwocky poem *giggles*
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): oh my
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, this is our last meeting of the year.
AlasAndAlack: It took me a few re-reads of the first few paragraphs to get the hang of how the sentences were structured.
Zoe Foodiboo: We'll start again in January.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): ((Rather like the first time I read Kafka and I thought the main character turned into a bug...))
Zoe Foodiboo: For January-April, we'll focus on just one book
Zoe Foodiboo: "Weimar Germany: Promise and Tragedy"
Pauline Clary: We do the Weimar Germ book?
AlasAndAlack: (((Lol, Augusta))
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): lol
Zoe Foodiboo: By Eric D. Weitz
Zoe Foodiboo: If you have trouble finding this book, please IM me later.
Pauline Clary: I have it
Eloise (eloiseschiltzen): I bought it, Zoe! I'm ready! I can't wait! Um, can I--bats her eyes--have another cupcake?
Zoe Foodiboo: I'll also provide further reading lists before each meeting for those people who cannot get a copy of the book.
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, Eloise. :P
AlasAndAlack: Zoe, can I say my favorite line before we go? I think it works on many levels in this story:
Zoe Foodiboo: Please do!
Pauline Clary leans over
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl) smiles
Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam) listens intently
AlasAndAlack: When Ellie falls asleep, Abel thinks "How good "that she breathes in oblivion with every breath she draws!”
AlasAndAlack: Despite all the thoughts he has about how life is changing and how terrible it is, the next generation will be oblivious of it.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl) smiles
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl): This is true.
Zoe Foodiboo nods
Pauline Clary: yes very true
She hipped me to an on-line book-club
'Well-Read Black Girl is a
book club, podcast, festival, and creative community
dedicated to Black women."
see her #teeshirttale
Join us on Wednesday, November 23rd at 12pm PT with author Courttia Newland.
www.draxtor.com/sl-book-club-...
Courttia Newland - courttianewland.com/
Book Club Location: second.life/bookclub
Book Club Youtube Playlist: second.life/slbc
Book Club Flickr Group: www.flickr.com/groups/secondl...
Book Club Discord: discord.gg/dtTubshPbg
The Second Life Book Club is a series of literary-minded events. For more information, and to suggest show topics or guests, please visit www.draxtor.com/slbookclub
Visit this location at Second Life Book Club Island in Second Life
webspelunker Ghostraven: First, let me start by welcoming all of you to our book club meeting!
Zoe Foodiboo: There's a seat next to me and next to Herr Norgaard.
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): but since it's sex a lap might be ok today
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): oh naughty
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Before we start, do we have to RP while we're discussing?
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): sure i have nothing against laps
webspelunker Ghostraven: Then let me thank Zoe for organizing the event and refreshments and to Ruumi for helping us with the agenda!
Zoe Foodiboo: No, no rules.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Sure. Thanks.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Open forum!
Zoe Foodiboo: We can talk freely :)
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Good good :)
webspelunker Ghostraven: (Although, I tend to overplay the homeless Menshevilk refugee, just ask Augusta!)
Zoe Foodiboo: whispers: please help yourselves to refreshments
Clara Croll (Lephty Lewsey): oh, I have!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Today we discuss Love and Sex in Weimar.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
webspelunker Ghostraven: We had several readings to allow for everyone's time and interests.
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): finally
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me chuckles
Zoe Foodiboo: /me grins at Sasa
webspelunker Ghostraven: (We try!)
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): Sasa is an expert on the subject
webspelunker Ghostraven: The principle text was Thurber's and I'm afraid was long out of print (at least for me)
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): i have a confession to make - i haven't actually read anything
Zoe Foodiboo: It's okay if you haven't read anything.
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I couldn't get a copy of that
webspelunker Ghostraven: Let's hope she contributes then otherwise...
Zoe Foodiboo: I only read two chapters of "Marriage: A History"
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): I read that book.
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): the last two books were not available to me
webspelunker Ghostraven: You're stukc with me for an hour.
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): oh i'm sure we can have fun
webspelunker Ghostraven: That's alright, I'm relying on Lawrence's "Lady Chatterly's Lover" as my primary text...
Zoe Foodiboo: Would've been interesting if Max had shown up
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): /me laughs
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): i don't know he knows where the library is
webspelunker Ghostraven: Let me throw out a question to the group...
Zoe Foodiboo: okay
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): That Thumber's book was quite interesting in a way.
webspelunker Ghostraven: How much of the change in sexual mores and attitudes about love were effected by the Great War?
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): there were a lack of men
webspelunker Ghostraven: Also, let's not limit the discussion of love to the traditional one of between men and women...
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): I feel it changed a lot.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): so the women had to get some new ideas ;)
webspelunker Ghostraven: Let's include same sex relationships.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): LOL
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): women had a new freedom ( sadly)
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): sadly?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): a lack of men ...fathers ...brothers...husbands gone
webspelunker Ghostraven: Is it because all the conservatives were dead?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): so no one to really tell them NO !
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Quite interesting to see. Till the end of 19th century, everything was more conservative.
Zoe Foodiboo: There was a change overall in the way people viewed the success of a relationship....more personal satisfaction, which included more sexual satisfaction in marriages
webspelunker Ghostraven: Augusta, my dear, fashionably late as usual!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): halloAugusta
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, let me rephrase that
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Hallo Augusta.
Zoe Foodiboo: hallo Augusta!
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): hello Augusta
Zoe Foodiboo: There's a seat next to me!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Hallo alle!
webspelunker Ghostraven: You're just in time...
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): Hallo Augusta
Zoe Foodiboo: We just started
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): /me waves hallo
webspelunker Ghostraven: We're talking about all your dead relatives on the Front!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): /me glares
webspelunker Ghostraven: ;)
Zoe Foodiboo: /me elbows Web
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): :)
Zoe Foodiboo: Behave yourself, please.
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): i thought we were talking about sex?
webspelunker Ghostraven: (i'll behave!)
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, we are...
Zoe Foodiboo: Augusta, the question we're discussing at the moment is: How much of the change in sexual mores and attitudes about love were effected by the Great War?
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): i'm not having sex with dead relatives
Zoe Foodiboo: Good to hear you have standards, Sasa :P
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): :D
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): of course i have, Zoe
Zoe Foodiboo: /me giggles and winks
webspelunker Ghostraven: Why was there a sexual revolution just because of the War?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Because people were glad to be alive
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Thurber's book was quite interesting because that book already showed the current 21st centuryish relationship btw women and men.
webspelunker Ghostraven: (Sasa, there's another sim for that. We can talk later.)
Zoe Foodiboo: and dating rituals were changing, especially with the invention of cars
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): yes a more relaxed way of living
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): That's true, Zoe.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes. but cars were more of an American phenomena then...
Zoe Foodiboo: Men were no longer bound to calling on women at their parent's homes
webspelunker Ghostraven: Here. only the rich like Augusta could afford them...
webspelunker Ghostraven: Notice I used the plural!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): true and more women had moved to the city , away from the farms and rural
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): women had taken on jobs and many had to support themseves
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
Zoe Foodiboo: Augusta's not rich in Berlin, she supports herself
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, until her dad found her, that is.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): thank you, Zoe
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, the failed nobility who led us into that disasterous war.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): That Thurber's book said women has more freedom than men already. It was 1929.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Here's my problem...
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): yeah, as it should be
webspelunker Ghostraven: The Reich had periods of war before...
webspelunker Ghostraven: Thirty Years War...
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): those are vastly different
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): I think that Great War and new occupation, and "urban" life changed things a lot.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Nappleonic...
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): men who just want to play soldiers
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): none of them were mechanized the way the Great War was
webspelunker Ghostraven: The social change wasn't as great...
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): one soldier being able to slaughter hundreds at once
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
webspelunker Ghostraven: So Augusta, you're inferring the Industrial Revolution?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): of course -- the mechanization of war
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): people thought every war was the last one ever....I believe people realized that was imply not true and wanted to enjoy the life they had
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): ^simply
webspelunker Ghostraven: So do we have multiple causes here?
webspelunker Ghostraven: Good point Sara...
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): a revolution in a way of thought is seldom from only one cause
Zoe Foodiboo: /me smiles at Sara
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): we could die any day, let's have fun while we can
webspelunker Ghostraven: Agreed...
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): exactly Sasa
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Indeed, Sasa
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): they felt they had cheated death, so they weren't going to miss out on life -- a suvivor's guilt fo sorts
webspelunker Ghostraven: The cult of death after the French Revolution for example...
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): the limits of ones world tends to lead people to an alternative
webspelunker Ghostraven: Interesting point...
webspelunker Ghostraven: The collapse of religion for example...
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): yes
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
webspelunker Ghostraven: Clara, what do you think?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): if everything you have been taught or known has led to demise....why not try something new?
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): it's also that leftist ideas had a lot more influence after the great war, with everything that meant for system of values and beliefs
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): what do you have to lose?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): exactly, Sara
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): nothing
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): just roll around in the hay and laugh
webspelunker Ghostraven: A feeling of live for today...
webspelunker Ghostraven: Then the economic collapse ruined family fortunes...
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes, that's another point, Abi
webspelunker Ghostraven: Prussian aristocrats pimped out their daughters.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): whispers: Excuse me?!
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): /me clears her throat
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): /me raises her brows
webspelunker Ghostraven: Read Friedrich!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): My Pappa did no such thing!
webspelunker Ghostraven: It's all in the history books!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): worries fro Web's safety
webspelunker Ghostraven: Pappa was dead remember?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Pappa is not dead!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Don't worry about me!
Zoe Foodiboo: Her Pappa is very much alive
webspelunker Ghostraven: I thought he died in the War?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): my brother died in the war
Zoe Foodiboo: We're getting a little off topic anyway
webspelunker Ghostraven: Sorry!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, Zoe's correct....
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): *rolls her eyes*
webspelunker Ghostraven: ;)
Zoe Foodiboo: Herr Gustav, you started to say something interesting about Thurber earlier...?
webspelunker Ghostraven: Did the suffragette movement or its German equivalent have an effect here?
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, he did...
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Oh, yes, ah, as I told you that that book already showing the some similarity to the 21st century situation.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I think women already had the vote in Germany, but I"m not sure
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, I think you're right Augusta
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): I couldn't tell how much they're serious. That was a bit of problem though.
webspelunker Ghostraven: I believe they did by this time...
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): since november 1918
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): ten years ago
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): sexuality did not only change for women at that time
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): but the politicians are not that good looking, so i haven't found any reason to give them my vote
Zoe Foodiboo: true, Sara
webspelunker Ghostraven: But Gustav, here in the 21st century aren't we simply downstream from all that came before us in the 20th?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): /me giggles
Zoe Foodiboo: ha! Sasa
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): yes, that's already modern era
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes, that's true, Web. But I thought that happened after 60s.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): But we were here already in 1920s.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): isn't that how history works in general? and besides -- youth always feels they are much more startling than they actually are
Zoe Foodiboo: indeed, Augusta
webspelunker Ghostraven: I'm always perplexed by the mid-20th century.
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): true
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): speak for yourself, Augusta
webspelunker Ghostraven: Hmm...
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): that's true, Augusta.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Ruumi, we haven't heard much from you..
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): I'm listening
webspelunker Ghostraven: Fair enough!
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): And you'll hear me when I have something to tell
Zoe Foodiboo: /me smiles at Ruumi
webspelunker Ghostraven: (Don't waste your time on me, listen to the others!)
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): And I see some similarity in 1920s and 1960s.
Zoe Foodiboo: I tend to learn a great deal when I keep my lips sealed for a bit :)
webspelunker Ghostraven: I do too except...
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I agree Gustav...but the 60's was more drug induced change?
webspelunker Ghostraven: The 60's seemed different...
webspelunker Ghostraven: maybe it was the Pill...
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): spoiled brats
webspelunker Ghostraven: Now, now...
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Hmmm, but in terms of evaluation change, both era are quite similar.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Young kids got so wild.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Simply because they may have had what you didn't...
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): (( I can say that because most of my older cousins were babyboomers ))
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): it's more behavior I am talking about, not possessions
webspelunker Ghostraven: I'm talking behavior too...
webspelunker Ghostraven: Acting out..
webspelunker Ghostraven: No curfew...
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): the 20's were exciting for people. A newness in attitudes that allowed late nights
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): long walks
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): petting
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): electricity helped a bit
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): kisses at clubs
Zoe Foodiboo: and things being published to help woman explore their sexuality
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): so sex of course usually follows
webspelunker Ghostraven: Cheap paperback novels..
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): (thankfully)
webspelunker Ghostraven: Gramophones
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Drug usage was only a small part of the culture in 1960s. But even in 1920s, some drugs were already easy to get. Even prescribed, too.
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): and workers' rights - much more free time for people
webspelunker Ghostraven: Which was new...
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): yeah thank heaeves for that
webspelunker Ghostraven: And after the oppression of army life for four years...
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): heavens*
webspelunker Ghostraven: TYVN Comrades!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Much more free time for people, yes, that's another cause.
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): especially for the masses of the unemployed lol
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Also I think especially in Weimar, the food shortage in 1910s lead to lots of evaluation change.
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): idle hands do the devil's work... :D
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): change, too.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): people were pushing the edges of culture
webspelunker Ghostraven: Survival perhaps...
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me chuckles
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes, survival.
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): it was also a way for some women to get a better future
webspelunker Ghostraven: Let me ask another question..
webspelunker Ghostraven: Maybe a personal one for some of us...
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Exaclty, Seraphen.
Zoe Foodiboo: help yourself to refreshments, Augusta :)
webspelunker Ghostraven: How many of us come here to 1920's Berlin because of that feeling of liberation and unfettered sexuality?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Danke
Zoe Foodiboo: Not me, truthfully.
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): i'm quite repressed actually :D
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): Me neither
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): not me
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, I know all about your celibacy!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Actually I am.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Anyone else?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): you can get that in almost any sim in SL
Zoe Foodiboo: I mean, not that I have anything against it....but I'm here pretty much exclusively because of the opportunity to help run the library & archive.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Not in terms of sexual "sex" though.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, but Sara, why here?
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): To me SL is a way to escape but there's nothing sexual in it
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): well
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I'm here for the history and the experience of living history
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): a good friend of mine who is berliner in rl commented that this sim doesn't sufficiently reflect the spirit of freedom that was there in the 20s
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): and how would your friend know?
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods at Augusta's comment, "Me, too. Though that is secondary to me"
webspelunker Ghostraven: Gustav you may be the only honest one here today!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Good point Abi!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): No, you're getting me wrong, Web.
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I am here for the historical aspects.....and a bit of the wild
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): i guess from what his parents told him, he had to say about that, he's always telling me stories
Zoe Foodiboo: Why is he the only honest one.
Zoe Foodiboo: ?
webspelunker Ghostraven: My apologies!
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): Yes?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I am dishonest?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): In terms of gay movement, 1920s was quite important. So that's why I started being in terestted in 1920s.
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): yes, indeed
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): /me nods
webspelunker Ghostraven: TY Gustav...
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods at Gustav
webspelunker Ghostraven: Because I believe that many of us are attracted to this period by more than the clothing and props...
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I got that sense from reading the Berlin Diaries
webspelunker Ghostraven: It's the lifestyle...
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): i didn't get here for the liberation and sex stuff, but i found my role soon
webspelunker Ghostraven: I think Gustav is closest to the true feelings...
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): although i'm sure that the spirit that was there in berlin was not necessarily present in other, smaller towns etc. was it perhaps rather localized?
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): I don't know about others but I don't care for sex. And I don't think that the 20s are that much more liberal than life nowadays
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, I love learning about Weimar but I've done this same job for two other sims. And I'd move on to another if I had to.
webspelunker Ghostraven: My intention isn't to offend or to doubt anyones' integrity...
webspelunker Ghostraven: But to ask why?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I didn't come here looking for sex
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): neither did i, but it found me anyway
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): hahaha
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): hahaha
Clara Croll (Lephty Lewsey): I'm looking forward to reading the transcripts from today so I can compose my thoughts on this.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me smiles at Clara
webspelunker Ghostraven: We'd love to hear from you Clara!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Abi, you're saying good point. I think Berlin was quite exceptional.
webspelunker Ghostraven: It was...
Zoe Foodiboo: I do hope this discussion continues as we meet each other at the Keller or Cafe Elektric or in our living rooms.
webspelunker Ghostraven: The Nazis didn't start here.
Clara Croll (Lephty Lewsey): yes
webspelunker Ghostraven: It's been lively so far!
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): lively but not wild
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): And do you think how was the real Berlin in 20s like, Abi?
webspelunker Ghostraven: That's what the Cafe is for!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): the real Berlin had to be much wilder
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): i'm not sure. like all major cities, i guess it was quite diverse.
Zoe Foodiboo: wilder and more diverse
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods to both, Abi and Sara
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): it's hard to manage much sex in the lag !
webspelunker Ghostraven: That's what the books tell us...
Zoe Foodiboo: hahaha
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): ... actually, it was probably a mix of views
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): not tha tI know of course *ahem*
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): some more traditional, some more open
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): yes
Clara Croll (Lephty Lewsey): more underground stuff - not so public
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): yes
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): but there's underground stuff here too
webspelunker Ghostraven: Without today's media, everything must have seemed underground then.
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): well suddenly men were in dresses and women were kissing women openly
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): but the underground most of the time stay underground
Zoe Foodiboo: ((I really have to powder my nose - I'll brb))
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): exactly HOW openly though?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): scandalous but liberating
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
webspelunker Ghostraven: Probably much more so than before the War.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I haven't quite sorted that part out yet
webspelunker Ghostraven: A good these subject there!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): well I think for the time period it was pretty open
webspelunker Ghostraven: I agree...
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): yes, I agree
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): I agree.
webspelunker Ghostraven: No selfies but pretty open!
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): lots of alcohol and drugs
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): even today it is not as open for that behavior
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes!
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): and the world was young
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): during the "Roaring 20s" in the US, it was "roaring" in some cities, but not everywhere
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): people dancing to jazz
webspelunker Ghostraven: We look at substance abuse differently now...
Clara Croll (Lephty Lewsey): women could kiss women and no one noticed or cared
webspelunker Ghostraven: Or smoking tobacco.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Does anyone care now?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): true Augusta, but values on all things tend to run culturally
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): yes
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): today it's a sin to smoke
Zoe Foodiboo: (( back ))
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): back then it was natural
webspelunker Ghostraven: WB
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): true -- that's my point
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): wb Zoe
Clara Croll (Lephty Lewsey): today it's hot stuff
Zoe Foodiboo: danke, Sara
Zoe Foodiboo: what are we talking about? sex?
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): back then there was not such a thing as political correctness
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): (( I don't get it -- smoking tobacco today is bad, but smoking weed is ok? ))
Zoe Foodiboo: It's organic!
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): no alas not Zoe
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): well, there was socially acceptible behavior
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): very little sex so far
Zoe Foodiboo: sorry to disappoint, Sasa
Zoe Foodiboo: I did find a book published in the 20s on oral sex
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): I feel overwhelmed euphorism in 1920s culture.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): That's interesting, Zoe!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Must have been a real barn burner back then!
Clara Croll (Lephty Lewsey): put the pot in the . . . What?!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): *blinks*
Clara Croll (Lephty Lewsey): oral sex1
Zoe Foodiboo: It's called "How I Kept My Husband"
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): /me laughs
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Oh my goodness LOL
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): hahaha
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): within marriage???
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): laughs
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): how scandalous
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): scandalous to even talk about, much less publish!
Clara Croll (Lephty Lewsey): that would be a Cosmo headline today
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, yes. As marriage shifted from social obligation to personal fulfillment, part of it was exploring sexual passions.
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): i'm not talking about the oral sex, i'm talking about the marriage
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Maybe things were more liberated than we expected.
Zoe Foodiboo: It was only 10 cents :)
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): so perhaps sex in marriages was taking a big turn for the better too
Zoe Foodiboo: I'd pay 10 cents for a few tips
webspelunker Ghostraven: Another good thesis subject!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): I'll buy that LOL
Zoe Foodiboo: hee
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I'd give a quarter !
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): just practise with a banana
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): and don't bite
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me chuckles
Zoe Foodiboo: Marriage: A History is really interesting...I think you'd all enjoy it.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): /me smiles
webspelunker Ghostraven: Hmm...
webspelunker Ghostraven: OK...
Zoe Foodiboo: It talks a lot about sexuality too. Same sex love, etc.
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): sounds like a horror novel
webspelunker Ghostraven: everyone...
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): there was also an influx of artists etc into Berlin at that time
webspelunker Ghostraven: We're drawing to a close...
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): so new ideas to explore
webspelunker Ghostraven: What have we learned today?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): already?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): time flies
Zoe Foodiboo: whispers: I'm interested to quickly hear what everyone read, if they read anything prior to this meeting. And what they enjoyed?
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): it was really nice
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): i took a few pics, will post them later ㋡
webspelunker Ghostraven: TYVM Abi
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): That's lovely, Abi
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Thank you.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): smiles
webspelunker Ghostraven: Does this format work for everyone?
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): right now i'm reading Weimar VIbes by Phil Rowan (maybe you've all read it before)
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): ((I'm reading student papers))
Zoe Foodiboo: I like the idea of reading discussions focused on topics rather than a single book
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): No I haven't. I'm going to check it, Sasa
Clara Croll (Lephty Lewsey): I want Alice B. Toklas brownies!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): it works for me....bu tI am hopeful that our book might be more readily available for the next one
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): I'm reading a non 20s related book
Zoe Foodiboo: though I do hope people are inspired to read....
webspelunker Ghostraven: How is it Sasa?
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): since i'm here for the first time, do you usually read book about 1920s or from 1920s? or both?
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): books*
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): both, Abi
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): a bit early to say
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): ok
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): :)
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): but it was cheap on iBooks
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, rather than focusing on one book, there is a list of suggested readings that includes books, articles and blogposts. You choose what you want to read based on your interest and time.
webspelunker Ghostraven: TY I didn't check there.
webspelunker Ghostraven: The discussion seemed lively enough!
Zoe Foodiboo: Also, I know Web and I have taken turns leading the discussion but does anyone else want to take the lead in the future?
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): i have to get ready for eldorado
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): oh yes ! me too Sasa
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Oh, it's Eldo time.
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): you're both doing a good job
webspelunker Ghostraven: TY all for coming!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): it has been a fun afternoon
webspelunker Ghostraven: Many thanks!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): yes, these have been enjoyable!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): thank you ㋡☺
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): if you hathank you, it was lovely
webspelunker Ghostraven: Our pleasure!
Zoe Foodiboo: Okay, we're always open for feedback, opinions, suggestions, and ideas!
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): oops lol
Zoe Foodiboo: See you all at El D!
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): thank you*
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Thank you very much for organizing this interesting occasion, Web, Zoe
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): see you all soon
webspelunker Ghostraven: whispers: Nice to meet everyone!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): See you, Saraphen
Teruumi Simoneaux (Korina Asamoah): Thank you!
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): indeed, nice to have seen you all
Zoe Foodiboo: Thank you for leading the discussion, Web!
Zoe Foodiboo: whispers: why am I hovering?
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): :D
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): :)
webspelunker Ghostraven: The drugs?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes, 1920s drugs LOL
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): oh dear!
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): somebody must have poured something into wine
Zoe Foodiboo: I just have to clean this all up
Zoe Foodiboo: I'll meet you there!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): see you soon then
webspelunker Ghostraven: Thanks again all!
Abinoam Nørgaard (Abinoam Resident): good bye, everyone, see you soon
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): OK, see you around at Eldo.
Zoe Foodiboo: Welcome and thank you all for coming to our September bookclub meeting. I’ll start by giving a brief overview of the book and the author, then I’ll give you an idea of what we hope to discuss today.
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): waves to Panny
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
Zoe Foodiboo: First, a summary of the book….
Zoe Foodiboo: did we all read the book?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes, I did.
webspelunker Ghostraven: I did!
Panny (Panny Bakerly): It's been a while for me...but yes.
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me jumps up and down in her seat. "I did! I did!"
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): yes
AlasAndAlack: /me nods. "Yes. Interesting and enjoyable."
Zoe Foodiboo: Some read it a year ago so we might need a refresher.
Panny (Panny Bakerly): Danke.
Zoe Foodiboo: Written in diary form, ‘The Artificial Silk Girl’ (German: Das kunstseidene Mädchen), is about a young woman named Doris.
Pauline Clary: I didn't
Zoe Foodiboo: It's okay Pauliine :)
Zoe Foodiboo: She’s a street observer, much like the protagonist we read about in Christopher Isherwood’s, ‘The Berlin Stories’, and an aspiring film star who starts off as a secretary in Cologne and ends up destitute in Berlin.
webspelunker Ghostraven: A victim of the capitalist system!
Zoe Foodiboo: yes yes
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me gasps!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Also, of the sexism of the time!
Zoe Foodiboo: hold on there comrade...Through Doris’ observations of life around her and her own failed attempts at stardom via a myriad of inappropriate men, Keun reveals to us the darker side of the “golden twenties”.
Zoe Foodiboo: Now, about the author....
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
Zoe Foodiboo: Irmgard Keun was born “here”, in Charlottenburg, an affluent neighborhood, in 1905. She went in an all girls’ Lutheran school and worked as a stenotypist as a young girl.
Zoe Foodiboo: It is said that, like Doris, she had aspirations to be an actress but, after encouragement from her friend, Alfred Doblin (author of Berlin Alexanderplatz), turned to writing.
Zoe Foodiboo: I think Augusta's on her way
Zoe Foodiboo: Anyway
Zoe Foodiboo: As you all know, her debut novel, ‘The Artificial Girl’, was a bestseller, as was her second novel, released a year later, entitled ‘After Midnight’.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Hallo, Sasa :)
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): (Hallo, Sasa!)
Panny (Panny Bakerly): /me waves to Sasa
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): hallo Sasa
Zoe Foodiboo: Hallo Sasa!
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): hello
Pauline Clary: Hi Sasa!
Zoe Foodiboo: Wilkommen!
Zoe Foodiboo: Make yourself comfy
webspelunker Ghostraven: Hello!
Zoe Foodiboo: Where was I?
Zoe Foodiboo: oh yeah
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): thank you
Zoe Foodiboo: Both titles were eventually blacklisted by the Nazi regime and, after a failed attempt to sue the Gestapo (!), Fraulein Keun went into exile.
AlasAndAlack: /me looks up from her coffee and sees Sasa's dress. So thankful she didn't put that one on this morning!
Zoe Foodiboo: I think she was badass :)
Zoe Foodiboo: Anyway
Zoe Foodiboo: oh my, Pauline....oopsy daisy!
Zoe Foodiboo: She snuck back into Germany in the early 40s, under pseudonym, and shrouded in false reports of her suicide. She lived with her parents until the war ended, then eventually moved to Cologne, where she died in 1982, at age 77.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Agreed!
Pauline Clary: oops *blushes*
Zoe Foodiboo: /me giggles
Zoe Foodiboo: So, What we’ll discuss today…
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me smiles
Pauline Clary: /me nods
Zoe Foodiboo: Our time here is short but please remember that our conversations can continue on Goodreads, Facebook, G+, at Happy Hour, or wherever we run into each other after we leave today. Let’s begin by 1) sharing our thoughts on the reading and the elements that may have led to it being banned.
Zoe Foodiboo: 2) Then let’s move on to a more general discussion of intellectual freedom in early 20th C. Germany and finally, 3) explore how our “characters” or our “rp selves” might have reacted to this book in 1929.
Zoe Foodiboo: Herr Ghostraven will moderate our dialogue. Herr Ghostraven, I’ll hand the reins over to you.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Many thanks Zoe!
Zoe Foodiboo: /me smiles and sits
Panny (Panny Bakerly): I can answer 3 right away...I would have blushed and kept on reading under the covers in the middle of the night.
webspelunker Ghostraven: I feel the book was banned…
Zoe Foodiboo: Oh! and behind me is a photo of the author!
Zoe Foodiboo: /me waves behind her head at the wall
webspelunker Ghostraven: Because it didn't show German women in a favorable light…
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
webspelunker Ghostraven: The 3 K's were not observed here…
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): Oh, I don't know about that, it didn't show most German men in a favorable light, either--
Zoe Foodiboo: oh boy!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): it was not only German women in a bad light...the men were not shining in particular either
Zoe Foodiboo: Hallo Augusta!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Hallo Augusta
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): hallo Augusta
Panny (Panny Bakerly): Agree.
Panny (Panny Bakerly): /me waves to Augusta
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): waves to Augusta
webspelunker Ghostraven: No respect for the family…
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Hallo alle
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me laughs, she and Saraphen were thinking the same thing. :)
webspelunker Ghostraven: The state…
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): that will lead you to a path of ruin Eloise :)
webspelunker Ghostraven: And replace the church with National Socialism…
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): a fun path
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Actually, reading the book, that book amazingly reminded me, "Sex in the City". It was quite interesting.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me raises her hand with a thought on why it might have been banned.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, I had the same thought!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Please Eloise!
Zoe Foodiboo: Though in Sex and the City it was much easier for women to find success on their own.
webspelunker Ghostraven: True!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes, that's true, Zoe.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): That's the total difference.
webspelunker Ghostraven: 60 jahrs difference!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): But the way to talk about women's life and sex is really like 90s style.
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, and by her own definition and on her own terms.
AlasAndAlack: Sex in the City and Bridget Jones.
Zoe Foodiboo: Doris' situation was really quite sad…
Panny (Panny Bakerly): Female point of view.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Eloise has something to say..
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): I felt the book was probably most likely banned not so much because it viewed men and women unfavorably, but actually, because it turned an understanding, often sympathetic view toward men and women, to understanding their circumstances, to having, in short, empathy and sympathy for a sort of person, a kind of plight, for which the Nazis had absolutely no symmpathy or empathy.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods, Yes very much so, Eloise.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Good point…
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I would agree with that.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I agree, Eloise
Panny (Panny Bakerly): /me and the homosexuality aspect too.
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): To my mind, Doris was a very sympatheic person, in many ways, all the more because of her faults.
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): at first I thought" They banned this?"
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): but it eventually did reveal a darker side of Berlin
AlasAndAlack: One must not have sympathy for the human condition when soon people would be killed for circumstances such as their heritage, religion and sexual orientation
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): the economy
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, she seemed sympathetic to the play? movie? I can't remember now....with the lesbian actress?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): drugs
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): (Good point, Alas!)
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): untraditional morals
Zoe Foodiboo: whispers: Hi Adele
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): Hallo, neighbor!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Hallo Adele
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): hello Adele
Pauline Clary: Hi Adele
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Hallo Adele
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): /me waves to Adele and sips her tea
webspelunker Ghostraven: I found the position of women in society scary…
Adele Kling: Guten tag, alle.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
webspelunker Ghostraven: Greetings!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): women were working, but still relied on men for the lifestyle
Zoe Foodiboo: Yes, and Doris so desired a glamourous lifestyle.
webspelunker Ghostraven: And their position in society…
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods
webspelunker Ghostraven: Remember what Doris' mother said..
Panny (Panny Bakerly): (brb...phone call)
Zoe Foodiboo: Didn't she comment about how when monied women marry monied men and sleep with them, they are considered good German women, but when poor women sleep with poor men, they are "whores"
Zoe Foodiboo: oh there's augusta
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Actually that's another interesting point. Her wish to become "glomorous" is really reminds me people's desire in 21st century, too.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Did anyone else notice the impact of the war in the background?
AlasAndAlack: Even when Doris worked, the goal was to earn money so that her outward appearance would snag her a male to keep her.
Adele Kling: Good point, Alas
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): YEs, I felt about that, Web.
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I think she was terribly hurt by Hubert
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, and you have to belong to someone!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): being famous and living well would have been a nice revenge
AlasAndAlack: Yes, the war. The unemployment blamed on the war. The war veteran Doris befriends. Very prominent what war had done to people.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me smiles at Augusta
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, Gustav, I had feelings too from reading this.
Zoe Foodiboo: whispers: welcome back
Adele Kling: Hello, Frl. Augusta.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Hallo
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): Strangely, perhaps--as brilliantly as she portrayed the unique difficulties of women at the time--I found the novel more about the human condition more generally, at root. So many men, too, lived in dire straights in the novel. Gender didn't seem to drive success or failure, but more the determinants of either.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, reminds me of contemporary America!
Adele Kling: /me laughs
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): That's what how war effected us, I think.....
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, no work…
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): but there was money to be had in Berlin
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me reads from the book, "Me--and my fur coat who is with me--my skin gets all tense with the desire that someone find me attractive in my fur, and I find him attractive as well ... something's crying in me--I want to bury my face in my hands to make it less sad." (I think this is more about being human, than about being a woman, really.)
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): But it all starts with the fur coat…
Zoe Foodiboo: What does the fur coat represent?
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, materialism!
webspelunker Ghostraven: I think it represents the desperation of the working classes!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): ... I think it was more about how the desire to have things led to bad behavior
AlasAndAlack: And it is important to the plot that she have to leave her home. Stealing the coat is the impetus.
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I think it's deeper than that
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods, "Go on, Sara...."
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): I think it represents everything, hope, wish, fame, stability, money, love.
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): she would not have stolen the coat if Hubert had not been a ....
webspelunker Ghostraven: But do we look as Doris as a person or as a representation?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): sad example of the male species
webspelunker Ghostraven: Indeed!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): it was his denying her love that made her desperate to get it elsewhere
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): (I look at her very much as a person, which is not to say they are mutually exclusive.)
webspelunker Ghostraven: But he was a two timer!
AlasAndAlack: /me enjoys the delicate pause Sarphen leaves in her sentence when describing Hubert
webspelunker Ghostraven: Cheating on his wife…
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): she didn't care if he married for money...but he was supposed to love her
webspelunker Ghostraven: Exploiting her needs both emotional and physical!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): true
webspelunker Ghostraven: Does Hubert represent the bougeoise?
webspelunker Ghostraven: A tawdry example at that!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I don't think he does
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I dont' think so
AlasAndAlack: He was aspiring to greater things…
webspelunker Ghostraven: Notice how all the female characters are victims…
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I'm not sure that the book is about class per se
webspelunker Ghostraven: The males predators…
Zoe Foodiboo: I think he's trying to climb the social ladder just like Doris
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): Oh, I don't read it that way at all, Webs.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Why?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): and of the neighbor, Web?
Pauline Clary: /me was taking photos
webspelunker Ghostraven: Because you're of that class?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): being sent to a nursing home
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): no, not at all
webspelunker Ghostraven: Which neighbor?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): the veteran?
Adele Kling: /me wishes she had reread the book
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): the blind one ....uhmmmmm
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, but he was a coward…
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): The characters are all flawed in one way or another
webspelunker Ghostraven: When Doris fought for him, he remained silent!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Oh no, he was clearly seeing Berlin is not the city like Doris wishes.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Was that because he was a coward?
or because he was allowing Doris to have her voice?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): a coward??
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): or because at the time there was nothing in hos power to do about it?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): To be strong when she thought of herself as weak?
webspelunker Ghostraven: whispers: He remained silent while Doris argued to take him out…
webspelunker Ghostraven: She said so herself!
AlasAndAlack: Yes, Gustav. When Doris tries to explain in words to the blind man just how gay and fun Berlin was, his conclusion from her description is that Berlin is a very unhappy place.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
AlasAndAlack: *maybe I should not have used the word "gay" when I meant happy.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): He remained silent because that's the only way he was surviving in the relationship with his wife.
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): (Because he could not see the exterior--the fur coat--he could only "see" the interior, the "reality" of the city that she saw and felt, too, but was desperate to be distracted from acknowledging.)
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): he did, but the circumstance of his life didn't allow for happiness...I think it was more futile acceptance on his part
Pauline Clary: What time period is book spanning?
webspelunker Ghostraven: Does the blind man represent Weimar Germany?
webspelunker Ghostraven: Damaged from the war…
webspelunker Ghostraven: Blind to the world around him…
webspelunker Ghostraven: Being taken off to a home to die?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Or that part of society that wasn't trying to delude themselves
webspelunker Ghostraven: 1932-3
Pauline Clary: ah ok
AlasAndAlack: My impression was that Weimar Germany was more like Doris - struggling to ignore the bad parts. Against odds. Whereas Brenner, the blind veteran, sees the ugly part she tries to dismiss.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Interesting isn't it, that the blind man is the one who sees clearly?
webspelunker Ghostraven: I think Brenner is key here…
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
Adele Kling: /me nods
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): Yes, in short, the blind man saw the truth, and all the seeing people felt it, but in a bustling city like Berlin, and given the realities of just getting by, were desperate to see (and be seen as) everything else.
AlasAndAlack: Yes Agusta! I'm thinking of the lines where Doris says "I just want him to like my Berlin." And Brenner concludes "The city isn't good."
webspelunker Ghostraven: Remember…
Pauline Clary: And the middle class
webspelunker Ghostraven: When this book was written the Nazis still hadn't come to power!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Question...
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes, it was 1930 or 1931 when the book was written?
webspelunker Ghostraven: Did Doris have sex with Brenner?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): no, I dont' think so
webspelunker Ghostraven: Sex is alluded to in many scenes in the book…
webspelunker Ghostraven: yes!
webspelunker Ghostraven: I'm not sure…
AlasAndAlack: If I remember rightly, no she didn't have sex with him but she does try to "comfort" him. The references to sex are somewhat veiled, not surprisingly.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
AlasAndAlack: So yes, Web, maybe she did.
webspelunker Ghostraven: "Comfort" can mean many things!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I think it was more a case of him ....helping himself
webspelunker Ghostraven: The blind man with a pretty woman who pities him is an old story…
Pauline Clary: /me looks puzzled
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): laughs
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): /me looks up: Who said sex?
AlasAndAlack: /me gigglesnorts her coffee. "Funny, Saraphen."
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): see...this is where I get into trouble
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Web did
webspelunker Ghostraven: That got her!
Zoe Foodiboo: /me snorts
webspelunker Ghostraven: Why?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): because I tend to speak before I think lol
webspelunker Ghostraven: Why so quiet everyone?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): but no I don't think she had sex with him
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): I thought that "comfort" implied BJ. And it was quite gray zone to be defined as sex.
AlasAndAlack: Why what? Why does Gustav get into trouble here?
Adele Kling: I haven't read the book, my apologies.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Why?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): at the time sex was for the ones who could gain her something
Pauline Clary: Some reviews tell it wa a bit of a dull read
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): she was very matter-of-fact about that
Pauline Clary: Was it?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I don't think it was
webspelunker Ghostraven: How about feeling superior?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): he rested his head on her thighs...not the other way around
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): comfort implied BJ? What does Herr Boberg got to do with this?
AlasAndAlack: We 20th century types want more specifics than 1930's could to give us.
webspelunker Ghostraven: It was only considered dull because it challenged the status quo!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): laughs
Zoe Foodiboo: hahahaha, Sasa....
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): hahaha
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): *giggles*
webspelunker Ghostraven: Aha!
Pauline Clary: /me laughs
Zoe Foodiboo: Sorry, I was taking photos....have we already discussed our views of Doris from our 1929 selves vs our 2014 selves?
webspelunker Ghostraven: So maybe we're saying there was a sexual relationship!
Pauline Clary: ok back to the sex
Zoe Foodiboo: oh, we're talking about sex
webspelunker Ghostraven: Not yet…
Zoe Foodiboo: I should've known....
Pauline Clary: come on…
webspelunker Ghostraven: Doesn't everybody?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): no...I think it was the equivalent of sexting for her
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): right!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): /me nods
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): *pretends to not understand a thing about that*
Zoe Foodiboo: /me grins
AlasAndAlack: I was just wondering if in 1930, a reader would think the depiction of sex was scandalous or just a frank description of what was happening around them?
Zoe Foodiboo: depends on who you are, I guess.
Pauline Clary: Some where very experimenting
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): They might have been surprised by how she approached it
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): I think that's why this book got banned after all.
Pauline Clary: trying lesbian relationships
AlasAndAlack: I've read Bridget Jones diary. I'm not surprised by the description of her love life. But I do not think it is a common occurrence in everyday life.
Zoe Foodiboo: oh dear, webchen crashed
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): it was all the sex talk !
Pauline Clary: Isn't the book called the Brdget Jones of the 30s?
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): oh web fainted
AlasAndAlack: ((Oh dear, now my life sounds so boring to me - why can't I be Bridget Jones!))
Pauline Clary: Yes, all the women talking about sex here
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): wb Web :)
AlasAndAlack: Wb Web.
Zoe Foodiboo: It's often compared to Gentlemen Prefer Blondes
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): WB Web
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): too much for him
Pauline Clary: wb Websi
AlasAndAlack: You missed nothing, we were still talking about sex.
Zoe Foodiboo: Hallo webby
webspelunker Ghostraven: Sorry, crashed!
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): is that nothing?
Pauline Clary: hihi
AlasAndAlack: Lol, Sasa, not nothing. Just more detailed descriptions.
AlasAndAlack: So back to sex in the book instead of sex in general…
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): sex was used to gain status for her
webspelunker Ghostraven: Or maybe Zoe's final query?
Pauline Clary: I understand it didn't make her happy
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): and I think it holds true in Berlin 1920
Zoe Foodiboo: I think Alas brought my inquiry up earlier
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Yes, I agree, Sara.
webspelunker Ghostraven: How do we see ourselves then versus now?
Pauline Clary: Now in 1929?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): That's the difference between Sex in the City and this book.
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, and does this book give us any ideas about our own rp in 1920s Berlin?
webspelunker Ghostraven: yes!
Zoe Foodiboo: Eloise reminds me of Doris sometimes
Pauline Clary: Like what ideas?
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): LOL
Zoe Foodiboo: so does Ilse
webspelunker Ghostraven: Pauline where you be in that book?
Pauline Clary: Nowhere
Pauline Clary: I didn't read it
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Being single and anonymous
intentionally in Berlin? I don't think that's Augusta... *giggles*
Pauline Clary: I just read some stuff on Goodreads
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): In 1920s, the social position that women could get was quite limited. In 2014, it's not like that.
Zoe Foodiboo: I think Zoe would find Doris silly....
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I agree Gustav
Zoe Foodiboo: but Zoe is very naive in Berlin
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): am I in the book?
Pauline Clary: In 1920s it depended on your debts
webspelunker Ghostraven: Would Zoe be a Doris?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): So, both of them are talking about sex life in a city but the stand point is different.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Would Gustav and web be dead?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Me?
Zoe Foodiboo: No, I don't think so. Zoe is supported by her grandfather, even though she likes to give the impression that she’s “on her own”.....but she feels like his money is her money.
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, we died in the war!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Augusta can relate to her choosing Berlin as a place to start over, but not to why. And not with the sex part.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me nods with Augusta's comment
webspelunker Ghostraven: Hmm…
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Well, I think I'll be sent to a gas chamber if I stayed in Berlin longer....
Pauline Clary: I have some dollars, worth trillions of Reichmarken
webspelunker Ghostraven: I don't think we're being honest with ourselves here!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): No?
Zoe Foodiboo: Why not?
webspelunker Ghostraven: No!
Zoe Foodiboo: Well okay, you don't have to yell....
AlasAndAlack: The character of Alas would be outside this story. Alas has but to send a telegram and money comes to her. Pity her daddy's money is from Wall Street and October 29th is due soon.
Zoe Foodiboo: /me tsks
webspelunker Ghostraven: We have these pretty little pictures of ourselves but we ignore our characters' warts…
Zoe Foodiboo: Ah, so will Alas find herself penniless on Oct 30? That would make for good rp....
webspelunker Ghostraven: But Gustav now you would be a hero!
Pauline Clary: Yup, all we speculants are about to die in Wallstreet crash
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): I don't have any warts…
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I paid good money to have my warts removed
webspelunker Ghostraven: Or become streetwalkers or..
webspelunker Ghostraven: Nazis!
Panny (Panny Bakerly): /me ((thousand pardons..RL family issue. I'm back now))
webspelunker Ghostraven: We all have warts!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): *waves to Panny*
Zoe Foodiboo: Any last words? I know some must go and prepare for El D......
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): butSara would grab Doris's hand and go to the parties too
webspelunker Ghostraven: On our souls!
AlasAndAlack: After October 29, Alas may very well end up like Doris. I am not sure what will happen. And I keep my warts under wraps for as long as I have clothes to cover them!
Adele Kling: I have plenty of warts, and they are noticeable.
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): ((waves to Panny))
Zoe Foodiboo: Maybe Alas can rp stealing Eloise's fur coat :)
Panny (Panny Bakerly): /me giggles
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): /me gasps!
Zoe Foodiboo: hee hee
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): hahaha
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, I'd offer mine but I don't have one
Panny (Panny Bakerly): /me I won't steal it...but can I pet it?
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): if she leaves it within reach ILse will have it
webspelunker Ghostraven: Eloise misses the plight of the downtrodden!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Augusta's imperfection is that she still sees things through a socially "proper" lens
AlasAndAlack: /me eyes Eloise's fur. "Worth stealing, yes :)
webspelunker Ghostraven: Yes, one that's fractured!
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Augusta thinks she's being "modern" but in a lot of ways she's not
webspelunker Ghostraven: Very true!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): That's really interesting, Augusta
Zoe Foodiboo: /me smiles at Augusta
Zoe Foodiboo: Your rp self is so well-formed :)
AlasAndAlack: Alas thinks she knows what is out there. She thinks she is not innocent. She will be surprised. And humbled I expect.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): /me smiles
webspelunker Ghostraven: Meanwhile…
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Hallo Herr
webspelunker Ghostraven: The Brownshirts are coming…
Zoe Foodiboo: Last two minutes.....does anyone have any suggestions for the next book?
Zoe Foodiboo: Herr who?
webspelunker Ghostraven: Marx?
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): NO
Zoe Foodiboo: /me sighs
webspelunker Ghostraven: Trotsky?
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Herr Snuff out there.
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): has Groucho Marx written a book?
Adele Kling: Why?
Zoe Foodiboo: Oh!
Pauline Clary: I hope 'Between Red and Black' will get translated into English soon
Zoe Foodiboo: /me waves
Zoe Foodiboo: Hallo!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Later Sasa!
Adele Kling: Yes, Groucho has
Zoe Foodiboo: Snuffaluffagus
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): What is that about Pauline?
webspelunker Ghostraven: last thoughts anyone?
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): (( no he hasn't .... yet ))
Pauline Clary: Does anyone know it?
AlasAndAlack: But he didn't write it in 1929.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): Tell us about it
Adele Kling: Neither did Karl
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Oh what's that, Zoe. Gosh that reminds me something but I can't remember!
webspelunker Ghostraven: But it was read!
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): was he the one with the curly hair and a harp?
webspelunker Ghostraven: and influenced everythign!
Adele Kling: Oh yeah : )
Zoe Foodiboo: Well, you can always send me your suggestions later.
webspelunker Ghostraven: *everything
Zoe Foodiboo: Or we can talk about it on FB.
AlasAndAlack: Groucho had the painted mustache.
Adele Kling: hehe
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): no I meant Karl
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): Thank you so much to Zoe and Webs, the book club rocks socks! And this book was beautiful and amazing, I can't wait to read the next one (whatever it will be). :)
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): People bought it, put it in a shelf, and pretended they'd read it, Webchen
webspelunker Ghostraven: Karl had a beard!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): thank you Zoe and Web for hosting this
Pauline Clary: I'm reading a book that plays in 1920s Berlin atm
Zoe Foodiboo: Thank you for coming!
Sasa Steigerwald (SasaSteigerwald Resident): thank you
webspelunker Ghostraven: Our pleasure!
Gustav von Rosenheim (gustav2005 Resident): Thank you!
Saraphen Calliope (Saraphen Resident): I have to run...was interesting today :)
Eloise (EloiseSchiltzen Resident): .-'`'-. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE .-'`'-.
Pauline Clary: Thank you!
Zoe Foodiboo: You all should go to El D!
webspelunker Ghostraven: Thanks for having us!
Adele Kling: I enjoyed it. Hope to be prepared for the next one.
AlasAndAlack: Much thanks.
Augusta Carolina Maria v.Nassau (gardengirl Resident): This was so enjoyable!
Panny (Panny Bakerly): Danke.
Adele Kling: Bis Spater!
Zoe Foodiboo: Toodloo! Check our FB/G+ page for our next selection.